Audible difference in high-end capacitors? - ABX samples

[DonR]

In 1st order of a crossover, the influence of the capacitor is usually clearly audible, especially on HF with a high-quality tweeter, source, amplifier, listening room, high quality audio, etc. In my experience of tests, Mundorf's Supreme is good and higher models as well. Supreme provide great tonal diversity of musical instruments in the upper registers, stability, transparency in the upper octaves. This is clearly audible in 1st order. Also, these capacitors have extremely low ESR, precision repeatability of capacitance, very low parasitic inductance, etc.

All of those should be measurable.

 

[Salt]

All of those should be measurable.

True.
But using what equipment?

Sideview to atomic physics offers continuing infinite downgrading of size and exploding effort to effect proving.

 

[DonR]

True.
But using what equipment?

Sideview to atomic physics offers continuing infinite downgrading of size and exploding effort to effect proving.

Enough to reach the threshold of audibility which isn't much.

 

[antcollinet]

True.
But using what equipment?

If you are talking audible effects, it is possible to buy an ADC (E1DA Cosmos) for 2 or 3 $hundred capable of measuring any audible signals.


In fact if you are talking "easily audible" then pretty much any audio interface will be able to measure that on its inputs.

 

[Vigovsky]

...ADC (E1DA Cosmos)...

+ NEUMANN KU 100
A person cannot hear well and is mistaken,
there is no point in trusting your hearing, etc.
Need to trust the measurements only.
Audio and music are for measurements only.
Need THD = 0.000000001.
I hope everything is correct now.

 

[Rewind]

That would be Mundorf Mcap Supreme Evo Silvergoldoil you are thinking about.

All of those should be measurable.

Jesus, just buy one and hear it for yourself. Alumen caps are not that expensive.

 

[voodooless]

Jesus, just buy one and hear it for yourself. Alumen caps are not that expensive.

That’s the point: someone did and measured and ABX’en them and found no audible difference and nothing in the measurements to indicate otherwise either.

I guess faith is indeed all that is left…

 

[DonR]

Jesus, just buy one and hear it for yourself. Alumen caps are not that expensive.

I have been using them in my designs and listening to them all my life, son. Our ears and brains are extremely poor judges of sound differences. If there is one thing you can learn from ASR it is that.

 

[Ruhled]

My ESR test of a quality ClarityCap CSA film capacitor in my crossover.
ESR is a very important quality indicator of capacitor...

Is it just me or does your photo show this 3% cap is more like 5% lower than rated? Quality indeed.

 

[Bamyasi]

Some time ago I have watched and listened to a quite interesting demonstration.
Several crossover capacitors have been used by this demo.
For each test one of them has been connected to the outputs of a power amp in series with a proper protecting resistor (low resistance, high load. Just to avoid a short circuit).
The amp has been fed by a CP player.
And surprisingly different capacitors have started to play music acting like a little speaker driver.
The loudness was of course different. Some capacitors could be heard directly, some required a stethoscope.

The conclusion: depending the tightness of the mechanical structure the capacitors behaved like motors. A very interesting experiment.

Now motors can also behave as generators.
And so I wonder if a capacitor can produce distortions (like another example: knock on a cable connected to an oscilloscope).
So mechanical vibrations (crossover capacitor placed in a speaker) may thus influence the sound.
The aging of a capacitor may also change the mechanical behaviour.

Possibly it would make sense to select this way a best (silent) and a worst (loud) capacitor and then to investigate if they give different results with measurements described in the first post of this thread.

I've just experienced a similar effect when re-installing my system recently. I moved and finally got my hands on setting up my stereo system at a new place. Initially, connected everything but the speakers (i.e. streamer, DAC, and the power amp) and what was my surprise when I accidentally pushed the play button on the remote - I've heard music playing! With speakers clearly not connected yet! It was very quiet but clean sounding except for lack of any bass. It turned out two banana plugs from the speaker cables dropped on the floor were touching each other slightly, apparently causing huge current in one channel of the amp. This produced some kind of modulated whining effect, not sure what was making most noise, could be capacitors or choke (or both). I was so perplexed that it took me quite some time to realize that I am not hallucinating and then proceed to finding and fixing the problem. Luckily, my amp (Apollon Audio NC800SL) survived the test with no visible or audible damage.

 

[ocinn]

Okay but you didn’t use $50,000 nordost cabling and 99.999999% pure silver XLR wires or a full synergistic research suite of products for these tests so the methodology is clearly flawed and misleading.

I am 75 years old (50+ years of standing directly next to the speakers at concerts with no ear pro) and I can clearly hear the difference between capacitors on my vinyl, non feedback class A 5w tube amp, and field coil open baffle full range driver system (even with my hearing aids out!!)

/s

 

[ctrl]

Okay but you didn’t use $50,000 nordost cabling and 99.999999% pure silver XLR wires or a full synergistic research suite of products for these tests so the methodology is clearly flawed and misleading.
I am 75 years old (50+ years of standing directly next to the speakers at concerts with no ear pro) and I can clearly hear the difference between capacitors on my vinyl, non feedback class A 5w tube amp, and field coil open baffle full range driver system (even with my hearing aids out!!)

Tell me about it, have trained my ears for about 45 years with metal and jazz music and now the bats annoy me every night with their echolocation.

 

[Vigovsky]

Is it just me or does your photo show this 3% cap is more like 5% lower than rated? Quality indeed.

Regarding polypropylene ClarityCap CSA. In general, I was pointing to ESR, not capacity.
The filters have the same capacitance of 0.447µF and this works great.

Indeed, the manufacturer stated 0.47 µF (630V) and 3% capacitance fluctuation
0.47µF (3%) this corresponds to a difference in capacitance = 0.014µF

0.47µF – 0,447µF = 0,023µF (23 nF)
Test capacitance difference = 0.023µF = 4.9%

This corresponds to a difference in capacitance of only:
0,023µF - 0.014µF = 0,009µF

 

[maty]

In 1st order of a crossover, the influence of the capacitor is usually clearly audible, especially on HF with a high-quality tweeter, source, amplifier, listening room, high quality audio, etc. In my experience of tests, Mundorf's Supreme is good and higher models as well. Supreme provide great tonal diversity of musical instruments in the upper registers, stability, transparency in the upper octaves. This is clearly audible in 1st order. Also, these capacitors have extremely low ESR, precision repeatability of capacitance, very low parasitic inductance, etc.

Yesterday,

XSA Labs TL Speaker

Having very good components in the part of the filter corresponding to the tweeter is highly recommended if you listen to good/very good recordings. Why not change the Audyn red for another? A safe bet is Jantzen Z-Superior. https://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

www.diyaudio.com

 

[voodooless]

I was pointing to ESR, not capacity.

Low ESR isn't ideal all in all applications. And in general, any cap used in crossovers is low ESR anyway. At best it will make some frequency response difference, and a lower value may not always be better in that regard.

The single number you get on your meter is silly anyway because it's frequency-dependent.

 

[Vigovsky]

Of course, ESR depends on frequency, temperature etc. , ESR=(tan δ)/(2*π*f* ESС)
However, checking the ESR with meter is necessary to determine the overall quality of the capacitor and reject unsuitable ones.
It also makes sense for selection of each capacitor and establishing symmetry.
This is especially important for electrolytes. This allows me to discard an obviously defective capacitor in real situations.
It is enough to measure a defective or failing electrolytic capacitor. Capacitance, ESR, Leakage Current may vary several times from specifications.

 

[voodooless]

However, checking the ESR with meter is necessary to determine the overall quality of the capacitor and reject unsuitable ones.

That's what a datasheet is for. Should be good enough if your using new stuff.

Maybe to check existing parts, it has some use.

 

[SSS]

ESR measuring is necessary when using electrolytic caps in switch mode power supplies at high frequency. High ESR means that the caps will heat up and thus degrade over time. SMPS are the reason that today caps with low ESR are available.

 

[Vigovsky]

Maybe to check existing parts,..

Yes, it makes sense for selection of each capacitor and establishing symmetry. The datasheet is not always sufficient for new capacitors in real-life situations.

 

[killdozzer]

As announced long ago the last part on the subject of audibility of capacitor upgrade in crossovers. The comparison ranges from a very cheap, decades-old film capacitor to an expensive high-end capacitor.

As promised, this time there are short audio samples of each capacitor (in a simple crossover) recorded with a microphone via tweeter (test setup see below).
View attachment 319098
The full mini series:
Capacitor upgrade in crossover - Is it audible?
Capacitor upgrade - part two
Capacitor upgrade - part three
Replace resistor by low-inductance resistor - Is it audible?
Different Binding Posts - is it audible?
Audible difference in high-end capacitors? - ABX samples

Lately there have been YouTube videos and discussions here in the forum for the thousandth time about "capacitor sound" (i.e. the audible difference of film capacitors of the same capacitance in loudspeaker XO, but of different price ranges and manufacturers).

In forums, on websites or in videos you can read or hear something like "Even if the capacitors measure identically, very clear differences can be heard in different price ranges and designs - in short, clearly audible difference, you can't measure".

To end these arguments once and for all (don't worry, I don't believe that myself), here is the ultimate test:
The capacitors are not only measured, but for each capacitor there are also two recorded audio samples, once a few seconds of pink noise and a short sound snippet of the well-known test music track "Fast Car".

Now everyone can easily perform an ABX test (e.g. with foobar) and decide for themselves how much differences are audible**.

Index:
1) About the high-end capacitor
2) Test setup
3) Measurement consistency
4) Tweeter measurement with different caps
5) Audio recording samples - see post#2
6) Samples analyzed with DeltaWave - see post#2


1) About the high-end capacitor
The following statements can be found about the high-end capacitor (3.3µF Alumen-Z-Cap from Jantzen) used:


Source: http://www.jantzen-audio.com/alumen-z-cap/


Source: http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Alumen_Z-Cap.htm


Source: http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

So, according to these "expert statements" we can assume that the audible differences between the high-end capacitor and the other two capacitors will be dramatically.
Personally, I can hardly stand the tension anymore, how will the measurements and the recordings turn out? Just keep reading...

** The recordings were not made in a studio, so I can not exclude that the recordings are possibly distinguishable by background noise (street noise, children's cough, TV sound,...) or editing - if you notice something like that, please report right here in the thread, so that I can possibly exchange the files.


2) Test setup

The test setup is identical to the previous parts of the mini series (see above). To better protect the tweeter, this time an air coil was used to form a second order electrical high pass together with the capacitor.
View attachment 319101
To measure the next capacitor or to make the next sound recording, only one terminal has to be reconnected to the next capacitor.
This is to prevent the position of the measuring microphone and tweeter from changing in relation to each other.

Audio interface: MOTU UltraLite mk4
Measuring amplifier: Marantz PM7001
Tweeter: SB21RDC tweeter from SBAcoustics
Measuring mic: iSEMcon EMX-7150
Measuring software: Arta (dual channel measurements when possible)

Measurements itself:
10s of pink noise, 1s pause and then the measurement (for best possible consistency).
The SPL of the measurements were 72dB@1kHz@1m and 90dB@10kHz@1m, more details see the calibrated HD measurement:
View attachment 319141
This SPL should be above the usual listening volume. The tweeters with ring radiator have slightly higher HD2 (but this HD2 will be completely masked) and very low harmonic distortion of higher order. Only the tweeter with ring radiator showed very good consistency, so it was used.



The most important thing, of course, is that the capacitance of the capacitors is almost identical. I have about 30 pieces of the 3.3µF standard film capacitors (about 1$) in stock, so it was possible to find an almost identical capacitance to the 3.3µF high-end Alumen-Z-Cap from Jantzen - which costs about 45$ per piece (was purchased only for you dear reader ).
There were also dozens of very old 1µF film capacitors (about 0.05$ each), of which three pieces together (plus a 0.27µF correction capacitor for 0.5$) make the cheapest and oldest 3.3µF capacitor in the test.

Test cap capacitance and deviation
Jantzen Alumen-Z-Cap (45$): 3.289µF
Standard-Cap (MKP 400V Arcotronics, 1$)***: 3.288µF (deviation <0.05% to Alumen-Z-Cap)
Old-Cap (MKT 100V TGL, 0.15$): 3.292µF (deviation <0.1% to Alumen-Z-Cap)
(measured with TH2821 LCR meter @1kHz)
*** good standard quality MKP cap probably cost you 3-4$ per piece for 3.3µF

The differences of the capacitors can be measured without any problems. Here the behavior of the capacitors at 1kHz and 10kHz the order is always
Alumen-Z-Cap, Standard-Cap and Old-Cap @1kHz:
View attachment 319115 View attachment 319116 View attachment 319117
Alumen-Z-Cap, Standard-Cap and Old-Cap @10kHz:
View attachment 319119 View attachment 319120 View attachment 319121
It is easy to see that the resistive part of the capacitors are quiet different and that the difference increases with higher frequencies.

This corresponds to what one would expect from a capacitor, since other unwanted (parasitic) properties exist in addition to capacitance. In the equivalent circuit for a capacitor this looks like this:
View attachment 319185
Source: https://www.elektronik-kompendium.de/sites/bau/0205141.htm

The most important unwanted properties are (the frequency dependent) Equivalent Series Inductivity ESL and Equivalent Series Resistance ESR. However, certain properties often only come into play at very high frequencies in the MHz range or above.

3) Measurement consistency
To get an impression how consistent the frequency response measurements of the tweeter and approximately how large the errors of the measurement are, a capacitor is measured twice with time between the measurements.
The first image shows the FR of the two measurements. The second image shows the FR normalized to one measurement with a very high resolution of only +-0.5dB:
View attachment 319129 View attachment 319130
In the frequency range 1-30kHz, the two measurements differ by a maximum of +-0.04dB. Put simply, this is probably roughly our measurement error.

Below 1000Hz the SPL of the test signals is so low that ambient noise affects the measurement significantly, therefore all measurement results of the tweeter with the different capacitors were limited to 1kHz to low frequencies:
View attachment 319147


4) Tweeter measurement with different caps
How do these capacitance and resistive differences affect the frequency response emitted by the tweeter? For this we measure the frequency response of the tweeter with the simple crossover for all three capacitors (see test setup above for details) - smoothing is 1/24 oct:
View attachment 319126
Those who know the other parts will not be surprised, since the capacitors were selected for the best possible capacitance equality, so you can hardly tell the difference in the FR.

To see differences, we normalize the frequency responses to the FR of the Alumen Z-Cap and look how big the deviations of the other two capacitors are to it (attention the scale is +- 0.5 dB, again smoothing is 1/24 oct):
View attachment 319131
Only the ancient film capacitor with the largest deviation in capacitance and capacitive impedance shows deviation larger than the measurement error (+-0.04dB).
The deviations of -0.1dB around 10kHz are extremely small and should hardly be audible.

To get a complete picture, let's examine the multi-tone distortion (these include HD and inter-modulation distortion) of the high-end capacitor with the standard capacitor:
View attachment 319138
As expected, the results are nearly identical.

So, the measurements are almost identical, now how drastically will the differences in the recordings be? See next post...

Update 2023-10-17: Added information about measurement equipment. Added Index. Added information about caps.

This is just great! Please, don't mind one advice; you should put the conclusion very high at the top of the post. I think it's a great hook for people to read the post.