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Arcam AVR10 Review

RichB

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#61
I'm on the page that science is science. It's just the test/measurement protocol.

I did look at the compilation of their 1W SNR.

SNR @ 1W
Benchmark AHB2 = 96 dB (Stereophile's measurements)
Parasound JC1+ = 87 dB (Stereophile's Measurement)
I don't know where all those were from and the test conditions, but the comparison between the JC1+ and AHB2 would seem valid if both were measured by Stereophile as long as both were for the unweighted condition (not stated), and @ 1W (that you stated).
The AHB2 and Parasound JC1+ 1 watt SINAD posted Stereophile measurements are not correct.
The load also matters, so using the 1 watt measurements (2.83 volts into 8 Ohms) the distortion values and SINAD are:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-media-systems-ahb2-power-amplifier-measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/parasound-halo-jc-1-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements-0

AHB2 1 watt 8 Ohms: 0.003 or SINAD 113
Parasound JC1+ 1 watt 9 Ohms: 0.012 or SINAD 78

AHB2 Stereo mode into 8 Ohms (clipping 108W):

ABH2Distortion8Ohmsjpg.jpg


AHB2 Bridged Mode into 8 Ohms (clipping 410W):

ABH2Distortion8OhmsBridged.jpg


JC1+ into 8 Ohms (clipping 450W):
JC1+Distortion8Ohmsjpg.jpg


The Parasound has about 2x the power (or 3dB) more power than the AHB2 bridged into 4 Ohms.

- Rich
 
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GXAlan

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#63
The AHB2 and Parasound JC1+ 1 watt SINAD posted Stereophile measurements are not correct.
Sorry, I was just trying to quote SNR in that list not SINAD because Audio.com.pl just reports SNR (as a way to see how their test protocol compares to something more comprehensively documented. I did make a mistake with the AHB2 numbers.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/parasound-halo-jc-1-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements-0
"Measured with the unbalanced inputs shorted to ground and the bias set to Normal, the amplifier's unweighted, wideband signal/noise ratio was an excellent 75.8dB ref. 1W into 8 ohms, this ratio improving to 87.25dB when the measurement was A-weighted"

and

https://www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-media-systems-ahb2-power-amplifier-measurements
"The wideband S/N ratio, measured in the high-gain, stereo condition with the input shorted to ground and ref. 1W into 8 ohms, was very high, at 89.3dB. Reducing the measurement bandwidth to 22Hz–22kHz increased the ratio to 106dB, while switching an A-weighting filter into circuit increased it further, to 108.5dB"
...
the AHB2's low-frequency noise floor while it drove 1kHz at 1W into 8 ohms. The level of random noise is very low—equivalent to 16 bits' worth of resolution, the RMS sum of the FFT bins adding up to –96dB"
 

GTsmokeya84

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#64
except we are now seeing mediocre measurements in 2 channel gear that has room correction ie: NAD C658

my question remains; After room correction, can you HEAR the difference? Does the device sound great despite the measurements?

I think a good setup to test this is with the NAD C658 and the MiniDSP SHD. Very similar devices. Both have Dirac room correction. One measures mediocre, the other excellent. Will I be able to hear a difference? Thats what I hope to find out
^ This. I too have been wondering this for some time. I have anthem's Arc in my theater and it sounds amazing in there with the stock anthem amp which measures like crap. I dont listen to music in there unless its part of a movie score etc so maybe harder for me to tell.
 
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#66
These AVRs seem pretty universally mediocre to just plain garbage. So what are the quality levels of the signals they are typically asked to reproduce when in their natural state of operation (NOT 2 channel, obviously)? When you have so many channels, are they any good? Is the source just bad enough that the AVR doesn’t have to be worth anything to “do justice to the source?”
 
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#68
This question should be the title of a pinned thread that collects together the best compromises available.
Regarding a forum thread with a list of AVR's people are happy with - I would be keen on that. Even if you are supplementing your AVR with a dedicated amplifier for L/R channels in HT bypass mode - it still could be a case of passing on an unknown amount of nastiness. Does anyone here actually have a AVR they are completely happy with in 2 channel mode, that measures well ?
 

peng

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#71
The AHB2 and Parasound JC1+ 1 watt SINAD posted Stereophile measurements are not correct.
The load also matters, so using the 1 watt measurements (2.83 volts into 8 Ohms) the distortion values and SINAD are:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-media-systems-ahb2-power-amplifier-measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/parasound-halo-jc-1-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements-0

AHB2 1 watt 8 Ohms: 0.003 or SINAD 113
Parasound JC1+ 1 watt 9 Ohms: 0.012 or SINAD 78

AHB2 Stereo mode into 8 Ohms (clipping 108W):

View attachment 66147

AHB2 Bridged Mode into 8 Ohms (clipping 410W):

View attachment 66149

JC1+ into 8 Ohms (clipping 450W):
View attachment 66148

The Parasound has about 2x the power (or 3dB) more power than the AHB2 bridged into 4 Ohms.

- Rich
Thanks, but my doubt about his posted figures were for the SNR, whether they were measured under the same conditions, i.e. weighting, output level.
 

peng

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#72
Regarding a forum thread with a list of AVR's people are happy with - I would be keen on that. Even if you are supplementing your AVR with a dedicated amplifier for L/R channels in HT bypass mode - it still could be a case of passing on an unknown amount of nastiness. Does anyone here actually have a AVR they are completely happy with in 2 channel mode, that measures well ?
Count me as one. I might have mentioned here before, that after hearing an AVR-X3400H side by side with one of my several separates pairs that are many times more expensive, I can happily live with any D+M AVRs at or above the AVR-X3400H for 2 channel use using an external DAC. That's because what I heard was amazingly satisfying sound quality, whatever difference I thought I might heard would definitely not be audible in even a single blind test. I was 100% sure of that.

People will of course hear what they hear, but with usually with the eyes help and the knowledge of the device being used. I believe him when Dr. Floyd Toole said "if you know what you are listening to, I don't care what you are thinking...", and he was obviously referring to loudspeakers, that in general do sound more different from one to another, than do pre/power/integrated amps. So one of the main pre-condition for using such an AVR for serious 2 channel use, is probably the ability to forget what one is listening to, aside from the media source itself.
 

Bear123

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#73
Does anyone here actually have a AVR they are completely happy with in 2 channel mode, that measures well ?
I'm completely happy with my Denon X3300H when using only my L/R speakers. Using its internal amps and DAC, I am sending a signal with .007% SINAD to my speakers, which on planet earth in real life is audibly transparent and indistinguishable from any other sonically transparent device regardless of how much more expensive it may be. Sound quality is objectively and subjectively superb with room eq below Schroeder and well integrated dual subs handled by Sub Eq HT and Audyssey XT32. That I paid $599 brand new is just icing on the cake.

Also, if I wanted even better *measured* performance, I could use an external amp and lower the SINAD to .0017% which is just as inaudible as the SINAD of the internal amps in real life, but would offer more power if I needed it.

Even better, I'm also very happy with the AVR when I use 3 channels or 5 channels, since it sounds just as good any which way I choose to listen.

DEQ provides even more listening satisfaction.

So yes, anyone would be very happy with what they actually hear when eliminating imagination with Denon's 3300+ AVR's.

Measures well, and happy when I limit myself to 2 channels as long as I keep the subs in play as I prefer the higher fidelity this offers.
 

SMc

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#74
I haven’t seen a recommended Arcam product on here yet. Makes me wonder about the quality of their CDS50.
The rHead was okay. I’d be interested in an irDac II measurement if it were still in production. OTOH, their iPhone 6 battery/dac wasn’t great as a battery or a dac.
 

Objectivist01

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#77
The rHead was okay. I’d be interested in an irDac II measurement if it were still in production. OTOH, their iPhone 6 battery/dac wasn’t great as a battery or a dac.
From the history of arcams measured here, my vote would be the rDac would be disappointing considering even on avrs arcams analogue sections were good but the digital was bad.
 

KEW

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#78
Misunderstanding. I never think of integrated AV products.
That’s because I don’t consider 350$ per channel+sub integration+cross+delays+room correction poor value.
How is $350 per channel good value when you can get the same capabilities plus amplification for around $120/channel?
Thinking of Denon AVR-X3600h.
It is a perverse reality that the economies of scale have such an influence on pricing, but it seems that the highest volume products are very often the highest values in today's market.
 

Dimifoot

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#79
How is $350 per channel good value when you can get the same capabilities plus amplification for around $120/channel?
Thinking of Denon AVR-X3600h.
I would never use any pre/dac, that uses RCA outs. Only XLRs for me please.

And the amps on the 3600 are not sufficient (for me)...I would also like to see them tested running all together, not as a two channel amp. Or at least 8 channels (In a scenario that uses ext. power amps for the front speakers)
 

KEW

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#80
I would never use any pre/dac, that uses RCA outs. Only XLRs for me please.
Unless you have long runs in a noisy environment, that is a personal choice!
... And not a common restriction to impose on "value"!

And the amps on the 3600 are not sufficient (for me)...I would also like to see them tested running all together, not as a two channel amp. Or at least 8 channels (In a scenario that uses ext. power amps for the front speakers)
Heck, just use two channels from the AVR and use an external amp for the rest! Or don't use the AVR's amp section at all! Either way you are paying $350 per channel with no amplification while others (like me) are paying 1/3 of that! I don't see how you can promote $350/channel for AVR pre-amp capability as value!
 
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