Denon AVR-X4700H 2020 AVR Review

[capslock]

Amir did a review and measure of HDMI vs other digital input a while back on this forum. Give that a read to see the impact. It's really disappointing. Then try an experiment yourself with your HDMI AVR. Play your music source and track of choice through HDMI input. Then unplug the HDMI cable and play the same source and same track through toslink or Ethernet input depending on what your AVR supports and listen to hear the difference. If it is all the same to you then you don't need to worry. If it sounds like someone through a blanket over your speakers and all the life and dynamics was sucked out of the music then you heard the impact of the HDMI noise.

I did this with my Firetv using tidal, Plex, and Spotify vs sending the same music directly to my Denon x3100w via Ethernet and the difference was night and day audible to everyone in the room.

Do you have a link or some more search words for me?

 

[MZKM]

Hi all, a new member but a long time follower of this forum.
I'm planning to upgrade from my Denon 2400H to a 9.2 ch AVR by the end of this year, so I went through the reviews that amir has posted.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we can still use a 3 ch amp for front LCR with the 2020 range of Denon AVRs right?

Looks like I've to wait for a couple more reviews (Denon 3700H and Marantz 6014) from amir before concluding that the Denon 3600H is the bang-for-buck 9.2 ch AVR in the market.

I was also planning to get a 3 ch Hypex NCore based amp for front LCR, so if anyone has any experience with the combo, please share your thought.

With the 3600H, you can use the amp assign to power 2 channels, which can be your fronts for instance, but if you do 3 external amps, 1 internal amp will still be in use.

If you get an amp that has an input sensitivity of day 1.5Vrms or lower, it’s not a concern. To my knowledge though, most Hypex amps are 2Vrms or higher, meaning the 1 channel that still has the internal amps active will have higher distortion than the other 2.

 

[amirm]

Do you have a link or some more search words for me?

See: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/a-deep-dive-into-hdmi-audio-performance.56/

 

[stevenswall]

Is this indicative of Denon as a company, or do they make decent stuff? I've been looking at a surround sound processor with XLR outputs but don't want it to share components with this if it's not good.

 

[rccarguy]

Is this indicative of Denon as a company, or do they make decent stuff? I've been looking at a surround sound processor with XLR outputs but don't want it to share components with this if it's not good.

Marantz is same company as Denon. They make two av pre 7705 and 8805. Both measure really badly. Worse than Denon 3600 avr.

As for difference in sound quality, what sounds better or what matches your speakers and amps better I have no idea.

You'd think the 8805 would sound great, however with the 14khz roll off it would sound a little bit lacking in treble. Like having thx cinema re-eq always on.

 

[peng]

I posted some measurements of a 7701. I don't have an AP so was using recording ADCs for tests. The basic SINAD of the 7701 would be -86 db. The spec claimed by Marantz would be -84 db.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/marantz-avr-7701-dac-measurements.3485/

That's much more reasonable, and would be in line with that of the AV8801 too.

 

[John Galt]

What a massive disappointment.

 

[Sal1950]

Then try an experiment yourself with your HDMI AVR. Play your music source and track of choice through HDMI input. Then unplug the HDMI cable and play the same source and same track through toslink or Ethernet input depending on what your AVR supports and listen to hear the difference. If it is all the same to you then you don't need to worry. If it sounds like someone through a blanket over your speakers and all the life and dynamics was sucked out of the music then you heard the impact of the HDMI noise.

Baloney, what measures did you take to ensure a honest listening test? How closely did you match levels? Did you use DBT conditions to eliminate any possible bias?

 

[amirm]

On avsforum, some buddy of the Sound United CEO (parent company of Denon) tried to besmirch Amir and his testing of the 4700. Didn't go well for that poster with other posters (including me) that replied to his post..
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-r...s-thread-faq-posts-1-8-a-24.html#post59829854

Interesting posts from him. Classic defense with no counter information. He just post this:

Happy to: https://www.similarweb.com/website/audiosciencereview.com

 

[carlob]

That guy is a total idiot, he's making more damage to Denon with his posts that a couple of (deserved) negative reviews. He's also posting that you twitted your review to Denon, didn't realize that was a forum user.

 

[Promit]

IMO all the suggestions of "try this wacky combination of settings and modes" are way off base. It's most useful to review these devices in a normal configuration, the way they're actually likely to be used. Not find some obscure confluence of settings such that the 2ch measurement is maximized.

It's also always fun to see the random users jump to Denon's defense because "it sounds good". Half of us on ASR have Denon AVRs I'm pretty sure, the 3600H is practically top of the review heap, and allegations of Harman bias can be quickly dispelled by the Arcam reviews.

 

[GXAlan]

Is this indicative of Denon as a company, or do they make decent stuff? I've been looking at a surround sound processor with XLR outputs but don't want it to share components with this if it's not good.

They have the most RELIABLE HDMI CEC that I know of. Compared to other THX Certified pre amps, these Denon’s are not bad. They certainly outperform NAD’s receivers thus far.

It is just DISAPPOINTING that this amp performed so poorly for 2 ch audio compared to the x3600h.

 

[BsdKurt]

skylarlove1999 used every disparaging trick in the book trying discredit @amirm (bordering on libellous) and defend Denon. He's doing Denon no favors with his tactics and the thread has been temporarily shut down due to his ranting at everyone. I also don't think he knows there's no advertising on this site so more traffic doesn't translate to more money. Grasping at straws.

 

[spacevector]

On avsforum, some buddy of the Sound United CEO (parent company of Denon) tried to besmirch Amir and his testing of the 4700. Didn't go well for that poster with other posters (including me) that replied to his post..
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-r...s-thread-faq-posts-1-8-a-24.html#post59829854

Denon America has now deleted the tweet and has now said this:
View attachment 69729

Haha I love it when a beheaded panther review creates drama in the AV world.

 

[GXAlan]

It’s funny that my speculation gets quoted as fact at AVSForum.

More speculation
https://www.akm.com/content/dam/doc.../audio-dac/ak4458vn/ak4458vn-en-datasheet.pdf

If you look at page 11 and 12 you can see how the AK4458VN performs with 5V versus 3.3V

At 5V, 44.1kHz SNR is 107 dB
At 3.3V, 44.1kHz SNR is 93 dB.

It’s possible that with all of this focus on running in Eco, the DAC is only being powered with 3.3V instead of 5V.

In contrast, the 4490eq in the x8500h is better at 3.3V
https://www.akm.com/content/dam/doc.../audio-dac/ak4490eq/ak4490eq-en-datasheet.pdf

 

[restorer-john]

Right, I don't but I read something about it from the AVSF.

Also, my guess of it not turning off the rail is based on the Y-Tube video jointly held by Denon and Gene of Audioholics.com. Its a long 2 parts video on the 2020 models. During one of the video Gene suggested that Denon should take advantage of the new all channel preamp mode feature by automatically switching ECO on if preamp mode is engaged, if not already implemented this way. The rep agreed, and both alluded to the fact that preamp mode simply disconnect,, but not power off the power amp section (rail that is, I assume..). A little wishy washy for my liking but that's all I know based on such circumstantial evidence.

If you look at the amp assign circuitry (SMs of the X4500H), when the amp disconnect trick is applied to the front left and right channels, it does only disconnect the amps without power off anything. I realize that powering off the rail is a no go when only some of the amps are disconnected. On the other hand, if the all channel preamp mode of the 2020 models in fact keeps the power rail alive, then since disconnections of each amps are done via those NJU72750AV switches, it would mean Denon/Marantz should be able to offer a future FW upgrade to add the flexible channel by channel disconnection that is already available on the AVR-X8500H as @Dj7675 mentioned a few times in the past. As Amir mentioned, it would be great if even only the LCR can be disconnected via the amp assign feature.

The thing about this entire "issue" is, it shouldn't exist in the first place. We have unloaded amplifier channels that are either being driven to swing voltages such that they approach or hit their rail limits and their negative feedback circuits are overwhelmed in such a way that the output devices are getting to a point where both (N and P) are conducting enough to cause fluctuations in the rest of the power supply circuitry.

In an unloaded correctly designed amplifier or amplifiers, the current drawn is little more than quiescent, right up to "clipping" as there is no path to 0v. It's only when both N and P devices are both on, can we have fluctuations on the PSU rails and that technically is a fault condition. If the amplifier/receiver has issues from unloaded outputs, it's going to have seriously major issues when 2, 5 or 11 channels are modulating the power supply rails.

Not only that, if the digital stage PSUs were properly isolated in the first place, it wouldn't matter what the power stages were doing. Simply cutting the input to the power amps concerned would be more than sufficient in that instance. All this could be solved with dedicated digital power supply/transformers and not simply hanging another tap and more rails off the main, and clearly inadequate, transformer.

Properly designed amplifiers, CD players and D/A converters of the past used multiple transformers and numerous dedicated and regulated rails to prevent these issues.

 

[carlob]

At the end of the day I think that once Emotiva gets Dirac sorted it might be the best option out there. I was hoping to see a new Anthem product but it seems is not going to happen.

 

[Skylarlove1999]

That guy is a total idiot, he's making more damage to Denon with his posts that a couple of (deserved) negative reviews. He's also posting that you twitted your review to Denon, didn't realize that was a forum user.

I am here. Amir is a dealer for Harman. That should be stated at the top of any review of a competing product. That is ethics 101. So please expand more how I am hurting Denon's business. LOL

 

[restorer-john]

It’s possible that with all of this focus on running in Eco

It's possible "Eco" is just lower voltage taps on the main amp rails. S/N will drop as will dissipation and overall consumption.

 

[carlob]

I am here. Amir is a dealer for Harman. That should be stated at the top of any review of a competing product. That is ethics 101. So please expand more how I am hurting Denon's business. LOL

I have nothing to add to the quoted message, that's exactly what I meant. Go see the reviews of Arcam stuff (Arcam is part of Harman group) on this site.