I just Fried fairly expensive AVR which is NOT mine

[thin bLue]

Or if the owner is willing to let you publish what you have so far, that would be great. If it measures poorly, the owner may want to sell it before valuation goes down.

I do have the CX-A5100 which Audioholics measured at 95 dB SINAD. It was the last good unit since the CX-A5200 and A6A did worse. The Yamaha’s seem to like old school 1V output rather than 2V for their sweet spot. When paired with an appropriate amp, it works well.

The 90’s vintage TA-N9000ES actually beats the Monoprice 8125X under those conditions (5W SINAD at 1 KHz and Multitone). I use the MX-A5000 despite having the PM-10 and Monoprice 8125X since it’s multitone performs identically to the Monoprice and I have high efficiency speakers so the 11 channels in one box is sort of convenient.

The biggest strength of Yamaha is actually their sound fields. Most of the modes are dumb, but Sci-Fi which has nothing to do with genre works well. They do Trinnov-like remapping of speaker position since it has the 3D microphone capability and at least on the CX-A5100, the Pure Direct and DSP modes perform similarly.

Thank you for sharing your experiences!
I think it can take time but Owner will 100% allow me to publish

For first look Ypao seems providing quite interesting presets and setting flexibility!

 

[Doodski]

I do agree that audio equipment ought to have its own protection circuit these days. Eg. computer power supplies already have its own over temp/voltage/current protection. Even short circuit protection so it will trip instead of blowing up.

Having said that, AVRs have multiple rails to monitor so maybe its too costly?

Protection has been around for decades. They are not using it because of $$$.

 

[GXAlan]

For first look Ypao seems providing quite interesting presets and setting flexibility!

It came as a real surprise actually. I have a Cosmos ADC and I have owned a Sherwood R972 (Trinnov) and all sorts of various AVRs.

Only YPAO RSC and Trinnov know the difference between

1) LCR speakers in proper Dolby configuration 10 ft away.
2) LCR speakers lined up shoulder to shoulder 10 feet away
3) LCR speakers at 9, 12, and 3 o’clock where the TV is located at 12 o clock 10 feet away
4) LCR speakers placed Such that one speaker is 10 feet above you on the ceiling, one speaker is 10 feet to your right and one speaker is 10 feet behind you.

Dirac, ARC Genesis and Audyssey are dependent on having proper speaker position.

Anyone who can afford Trinnov probably has speakers in the right spots.

Yamaha is really impressive in that I am willing to give up all sorts of measured performance and user interface/video compatibility because once configured properly, it does a nicer job of blending the sound field of imperfectly placed speakers, as may be the case in a family room as opposed to a dedicated theater.

1) the multi angle measurements are disabled by default!
2) the music DSPs are all gimmicks.
3) the movie DSPs are less gimmicky, but Sci Fi is one of the most conservative of the effects. Enhanced is supposed to enhance native Atmos/DTS:X content better but I find that it exaggerated the center channel too much.

Sci Fi is great because it doesn’t add excessive reverb and basically gives you a clean sound field which just a bit of theater level reverb. Spectacle is wonderful for movies like Top Gun Maverick.

Again, 99.999% of DSP from other AVRs is dumb reverb and the music modes from Yamaha is also mostly dumb reverb. The movie DSP though is much more clever and can be fine tuned to your room size and is more about making speakers disappear.

 

[restorer-john]

Again, 99.999% of DSP from other AVRs is dumb reverb and the music modes from Yamaha is also mostly dumb reverb.

Yamaha pioneered DSP in the home environment and it was never just 'dumb reverb'.

 

[Doodski]

Yamaha pioneered DSP in the home environment and it was never just 'dumb reverb'.

I was selling Yamaha DSP surround sound processors ~36 years ago. Yamaha wrote the book on DSP surround processing.

 

[restorer-john]

Yamaha wrote the book on DSP surround processing.

They certainly did. I have several DSP-1 units, a DSP-3000 and a few DSP-100 processors.

Those units were all 16/44 with all the original 4 point microphone measured acoustic spaces captured over the three years Yamaha engineers travelled the world going to famous halls, arenas and clubs. Each mic captured 22 early reflections data meaning 88 early reflections (across 4 ch).

Yamaha had to make their own decent A/D converter (16/44) using a 16 D/A converter arranged as a successive approximation A/D. Very cool. Twin time shared D/As for the 4 effects channels.

The DSP-1 is still a work of art. An absolute game changer for realism in the home when used correctly. Trouble is, everyone made it do stupid things because we could. Giant Munster Cathedral with 99 second reverb time or lifted the roof off the Village Vanguard by making it enormous in all three axes, or pitch changing all 4 channels with respect to each other. Making giant echo rooms etc. Silly stuff when we were bored.

But use them properly, with 6 identical main speakers and six identical power amps in a large room and they are amazing. But only for the people in the room.

Hardly just 'dumb' reverb...

The next series of DSP products in 1992 dropped the digital processing to 32kHz sampling and the standalone processors were stripped of a lot of functionality, simply because consumers had ZERO idea how to operate even a DSP-100 properly, letalone the DSP-1 and they wouldn't spend money on matching power amps to get the 6 ch (ideal) setup. I had huge arguments about the need for full range effects channels, amps and speakers with the store owner who just wanted to sell the hideous wall mount surround speakers and low powered effects channel products.

 

[Doodski]

They certainly did. I have several DSP-1 units, a DSP-3000 and a few DSP-100 processors.

Those units were all 16/44 with all the original 4 point microphone measured acoustic spaces captured over the three years Yamaha engineers travelled the world going to famous halls, arenas and clubs. Each mic captured 22 early reflections data meaning 88 early reflections (across 4 ch).

The DSP-1 is still a work of art. An absolute game changer for realism in the home when used correctly. Trouble is, everyone made it do stupid things because we could. Giant Munster Cathederal with 99second reverb time or lifted the roof off the Village Vanguard by making it enormous or pitch changing all 4 channels with respect to each other. Making giant echo rooms etc.

But use them properly, with 6 identical main speakers and six identical power amps in a large room and they are amazing. But only for the people in the room.

Hardly just 'dumb' reverb...

View attachment 254379

There was nothing like it at the time. It was that clear that Yamaha had the market cornered. They cost a couple of grand from what I remember and we could not keep them in stock. We had customers wanting to pay a premium to buy the demo model that we would not sell. It was pretty crazy now that I look back at it and as you say the parameters for calibration of the surround settings was wild. We could sell them with ~3 months delivery ETA on backorders at the time and customers where agreeing to that.

 

[restorer-john]

There was nothing like it at the time. It was that clear that Yamaha had the market cornered. They cost a couple of grand from what I remember and we could not keep them in stock.

They debuted here in Australia at $1599 (or maybe AU$1899) IIRC, but I reckon it was a bit of a loss leader for them. At all the HiFi shows, they'd have a trio of M-80/85s, 6xNS-1000M speakers, an MVS-1 (master volume for the DSP-1) and a TOTL CD player and preamp in the "DSP" room.

It basically blew people's tits off when they first heard what it could do. People would come out just flabbergasted. Your grandpas' radiogram it wasn't.

But, the logisitics of all that gear and all that money meant only a few hardcore people bought them. The DSP-100 was a cheaper unit with and inbuilt motorized 6 gang master volume control and none of the effector modes. Heaps of DSP-1s were sold to musicians back in the day because it was so far in front of its time. It had the front panel RCA inputs etc and a 3V in/out level.

The DSP-3000 was just too expensive and we never sold any until they ran them out and by then, they were obsolete with only dolby surround. Pity, because it was a nice unit.

Then came prologic and the explosion of VHS HiFi surround/laser disc and then of course DVD with 5.1 DD. The standalone processors lasted through until the early 1990s, but the AVRs had killed them in real terms.

 

[Doodski]

They debuted here in Australia at $1599 (or maybe AU$1899) IIRC, but I reckon it was a bit of a loss leader for them. At all the HiFi shows, they'd have a trio of M-80/85s, 6xNS-1000M speakers, an MVS-1 (master volume for the DSP-1) and a TOTL CD player in the "DSP" room.

It basically blew people's tits off when they first heard what it could do.

But, the logisitics of all that gear and all that money meant only a few hardcore people bought them. The DSP-100 was a cheaper unit with and inbuilt motorized 6 gange master volume control and none of the effector modes. Heaps of DSP-1s were sold to musicians back in the day because it was so far in front of its time. (had the front panel RCA inputs etc and a 3V in/out level.

I sold so many Yamaha surround receivers after doing the top of the line Yamaha DSP surround sound demo in the dedicated surround sound demo room. It was a license to print money. People could have a slice of the high end DSP components for a small fraction of the expense of the top of the line stuff. It was a awesome setup.

 

[GXAlan]

Yamaha pioneered DSP in the home environment and it was never just 'dumb reverb'.

Point taken

Yes, it’s not dumb reverb. I said that for the naysayers to think that I am agreeing with them about DSP so they actually believe me when I say that I won’t buy a non Yamaha AVR going forward unless I am in a dedicated home theater room. Yamaha CX-A5100 brings the biggest smile to my face and the ability to leverage DSP with real world not-ideal speaker placement is the game changer.

Yamaha has extensive measurements to build their model which are then *enhanced* with knowledge of your room’s own speaker *positions* and early/reflections, the current volume level, and done with 96 kHz precision so you don’t have to decimate everything to 48 kHz. (Again, the content at 48 kHz is fine, but manipulating the audio introduces errors).

Yamaha’s DSP was so game changing that everyone copied it as a feature set but did zero effort to reproduce it. The DSP actually works best with Dolby Pro Logic II when upsampling 2 channel content, so the CX-A5100 is the modern DSP-A1. It is the only product to have paid Dolby 2x the license fees for BOTH DPL II and Dolby Surround Upmixer! The current A8A generation relies on DTS upmixing for the DSPs more than DSU but the 5.1 and Atmos enhancement with DSP is great. I am not sure about Surround AI though.

TODAY, Yamaha has a 108.6 channel showcase at their museum in Japan with regularly updated content

Early prototype

Commercial application

Active Field Control Immersive Audio System - Yamaha USA

Active Field Control (AFC) is an acoustic conditioning system designed to adjust and enhance the sound of a space while making use of the natural acoustic properties of the existing structure.

usa.yamaha.com

Screenshot of CX-A5100 app showing how reverb is only one of the four controls, and it’s actually DISABLED for all of the movie modes.

 

[restorer-john]

It's funny. The demo laser discs we used back then were Days of Thunder, Top Gun etc.

I remember couples (and families) twisting their heads back and uttering WTF style sayings when the cars went around the room and behind them, only to blast past in front of them again. I had women scream when that happened and I knew the husbands were sold.

And now, we have the Maverick classic carrier take-off/landing scenes again, except even better!

 

[Holmz]

Or if the owner is willing to let you publish what you have so far, that would be great. If it measures poorly, the owner may want to sell it before valuation goes down.
…

What is the value of a unit that smoke escaped from?

 

[Doodski]

What is the value of a unit that smoke escaped from?

Negative value...

 

[GXAlan]

I only hope that the rise of 16 channel processors from Marantz will encourage Yamaha to release a 16 ch processor in the future with Cinema DSP 3D.

What is the value of a unit that smoke escaped from?

It’s under warranty. After repair…

Yamaha fans are secretly hoping the low center channel SINAD of the A6A is not found in the A8A due to different DAC boards. If it measures equally across all 11 channels, it would be the best AVR out there if you were using it with amplification, utilized Cinema DSP, and wasn’t running 2 ohm loads.

The CX-A5100 from 2015 was hitting 95 dB SINAD C at 2.7V. The CX-A5200 had a big drop in performance and the A6A only has high SINAD for everything but the Center. Right now the A8A is the flagship.

Audioholics
CX-A5100:
Unbal - 90dB @ 1kHz
Bal -95dB @ 1kHz

CX-A5200:
Unbal -88dB @ 1kHz
Bal -72dB @ 1kHz

 

[antcollinet]

They may be placed inside, on the PCB boards. I would try to check it and possibly save the budget.

fuses don't normally emit the magic smoke though.

 

[Doodski]

fuses don't normally emit the magic smoke though.

Yes, and the test was being conducted with one channel driven so the fuse(s) if gone would need full current draw to blow and that means shorted output transistors. If that much current was being drawn before the protection circuitry engaged.

 

[Holmz]

I only hope that the rise of 16 channel processors from Marantz will encourage Yamaha to release a 16 ch processor in the future with Cinema DSP 3D.


It’s under warranty. After repair…

OK - I get it now.

Yamaha fans are secretly hoping the low center channel SINAD of the A6A is not found in the A8A due to different DAC boards. If it measures equally across all 11 channels, it would be the best AVR out there if you were using it with amplification, utilized Cinema DSP, and wasn’t running 2 ohm loads.

The CX-A5100 from 2015 was hitting 95 dB SINAD C at 2.7V. The CX-A5200 had a big drop in performance and the A6A only has high SINAD for everything but the Center. Right now the A8A is the flagship.

Audioholics
CX-A5100:
Unbal - 90dB @ 1kHz
Bal -95dB @ 1kHz

CX-A5200:
Unbal -88dB @ 1kHz
Bal -72dB @ 1kHz

That seems like a lot of fuss,,,, but really how much SINAD does one need for HT?
The visual channel is working the brain overtime, so what is left to ponder with SINAD? Unless it is clipping and really bad,, then who cares?

 

[Dumdum]

@thin bLue can claim to be one of a few people on Earth to have ever torture tested a AVR into 2 Ohms...lol. You are now a global expert in 2 Ohms testing...lol. I never tested @ 2 Ohms even into monster car amps. It's just so dangerous for the wallet and blowing up gear costs money in the form of time fixing what was damaged.

Meh, I used to run my amps into 0.25ohm each when I was competing, with impedance rise I got approx 0.8ohm and 7k per pair of strapped 5k rms amps I was chasing world records and was third in the world at one point in the late 2000’s

 

[audiofooled]

They certainly did. I have several DSP-1 units, a DSP-3000 and a few DSP-100 processors.

Those units were all 16/44 with all the original 4 point microphone measured acoustic spaces captured over the three years Yamaha engineers travelled the world going to famous halls, arenas and clubs. Each mic captured 22 early reflections data meaning 88 early reflections (across 4 ch).

Yamaha had to make their own decent A/D converter (16/44) using a 16 D/A converter arranged as a successive approximation A/D. Very cool. Twin time shared D/As for the 4 effects channels.

The DSP-1 is still a work of art. An absolute game changer for realism in the home when used correctly. Trouble is, everyone made it do stupid things because we could. Giant Munster Cathedral with 99 second reverb time or lifted the roof off the Village Vanguard by making it enormous in all three axes, or pitch changing all 4 channels with respect to each other. Making giant echo rooms etc. Silly stuff when we were bored.

But use them properly, with 6 identical main speakers and six identical power amps in a large room and they are amazing. But only for the people in the room.

Hardly just 'dumb' reverb...

View attachment 254379

The next series of DSP products in 1992 dropped the digital processing to 32kHz sampling and the standalone processors were stripped of a lot of functionality, simply because consumers had ZERO idea how to operate even a DSP-100 properly, letalone the DSP-1 and they wouldn't spend money on matching power amps to get the 6 ch (ideal) setup. I had huge arguments about the need for full range effects channels, amps and speakers with the store owner who just wanted to sell the hideous wall mount surround speakers and low powered effects channel products.

My DSP-A1000 still going strong. Tried the multichannel setup with it, got immersed and impressed but sadly don't have room for this. My observation is that the power amp section for it's time is as good as it gets. Overly engineered for sure. Very low distortion, It drives any load but is also well protected, it will react to any hint of a lightning strike. Simply built to last.
But the preamp section has audible noise, my guess it's because of the DSP chip. Not to mention input selector switch, LCR volume pots (all motorized) and I just don't get it why the low quality front mix switch and a tiny main volume pot on the back...

Here are some measurements of it back in the day
https://docplayer.net/90110308-Proj...er-happened-sony-ta-e1000-digital-preamp.html (the review starts at page 54)
THD + N is mostly noise, and I guess power section harmonics were mostly affecting the DSP chip.

So I decided to bypass the DSP part of it, along with the front mix switch and main volume pot. Since then it happily drives two main towers and a passive sub through the LFE out to the center channel amp (towers dip to 2,67 Ohm and sub to 2 Ohm). No audible noise, no audible distortion, and it truly packs a punch.

 

[Doodski]

Meh, I used to run my amps into 0.25ohm each when I was competing, with impedance rise I got approx 0.8ohm and 7k per pair of strapped 5k rms amps I was chasing world records and was third in the world at one point in the late 2000’s

That hardly makes everything else people do as a, "Meh." Did you run sine waves at that fraction of a Ohm?