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Why "audiophiles" don't use VSTs?

Londek

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Why "audiophiles" don't use VSTs? Concept is pretty clear - you would get objectively saying the most precise amp, speaker - entire audio rig - and then colorize signal digitally at source (well, you could route analog signal to the actual analog rig, but plugins mimic analog rigs so well already), add up some distortion (Ozone Pro Exciter, Fabfilter Saturn etc), EQ (Pro-Q etc).

I've been observing the audiophile community for a pretty long time now and I've noticed all conversations come down to one thing:
People just don't like the mix, it's literally that simple, either song is actually poorly mixed or people just don't enjoy the tonality that audio engineer offered them.
Also why don't we have DSP's with support for VSTs? (I don't know any, if you know one, let me know)

Maybe money is the issue as always? Amp can be sold for 5k USD, typical plugin goes for <500 USD (and that's most often the price of entire bundle!), so it might not be worth it for audiophile companies to change the mindset behind the "audio quality"

Or maybe, I don't like to put it this way, but maybe audiophiles are just too dumb and they think measured gear distortion is different from the same but digitally applied one? (Same thing goes for EQs etc)
 

Keith_W

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Great question! Why don't audiophiles use VST's? I think it is because both types of audiophiles, subjectivists and objectivists, are purists.

Subjectivists don't like anything interfering with the sound. Some are even horrified by the idea of music being digitized because they believe it can not be reconstructed the same way again. Some go to the extent of eschewing digital altogether and maintaining a completely analog signal chain. Never mind that their LP might have been processed digitally, it is ignored just as anything upstream of their expensive power cable is ignored, or all the logical flaws. To them, VST is an unimaginable horror, almost like a swear word.

Objectivists don't like anything interfering with the sound either. You see that all over ASR - pursuit of ever lower distortion figures, more perfect SINAD, compliance with the Harman curve, pursuit of perfect spinoramas, and so on. Anything that might colour the sound, e.g. vinyl playback or valve amps, gets forcefully derided by many here on ASR. Do you think someone who spends time on ASR sneering at DAC's and amplifiers based on Amir's measurements is going to deliberately add distortion (i.e. anything that changes the digital signal) to their music? I don't think so, because if they did, they would be listening to those DAC's and amps which might produce euphonic distortion and asking themselves if they like the sound or not, and whether they should try to implement it. Rather, anything that is a headless panther is jeered for being snake oil, regardless of whether it actually sounds good.

I know I am opening myself to attack from all camps here, but I think both approaches are mistaken. This is because the sound engineer in charge of mastering your music is neither objectivist nor subjectivist (apart from some who work for audiophile labels who might be subjectivists, but even then probably not much and only for marketing purposes). Rather, they are a type which I would like to call "subjective objectivist". In that, they mix the music to their subjective taste, while using an objective approach. If they think an artistic purpose is better suited by boosting something and suppressing something else, they do it. And what's more, they do it on their headphones or studio monitors which ideally are designed to produce accurate response but are probably very different to what you are using to listen. And then there are all those legacy recordings using old mixers, valve amplifiers, studio monitors that sound like tin boxes (like the BBC LS3/5a), not to mention limitations of recording and playback equipment that those recordings were mastered for.

So ... in my very humble opinion ... the only reasonable approach is to be a "subjective objectivist" yourself. Sure, I design my system with active crossovers, driver and room correction in order to create the most linear, distortion free, and corrected system that I possibly can. But after I do that, I am quite happy to choose a different (non-Harman) target curve, or to add effects via VST to create a sound that I find pleasing. I have different sound profiles that have been saved in my convolver that I can switch with the click of a mouse. Depending on what I add (or not add) I can make my system sound anything from dry and clinical all the way to 1950's AM radio. Not that I do the latter by any means, but it is an interesting demonstration of what is possible. My system is not here to reproduce perfect square waves and impulse responses, although it can certainly come close. I created it to enjoy music.

I do not think that sound engineers who mastered the recordings are necessarily the best people to decide how I should listen to my music. I have certainly come across recordings which sound strange - maybe too much treble, or not enough. In my house, and with my music, it is me who is best placed to judge what I like. I know full well that my taste and preference in sound is not universal, which is why I don't lecture others on what their tastes should be like.

$500 for a VST plugin is not really an issue for me. What is an issue is that quite often those VST plugins require a DAW and do not have the ease of use of a free VST plugin with limited functionality that you can host on JRiver or any decent convolver. The last time I tried a demo version of an "advanced" VST plugin, there was no way, within the limits of my ability, to understand enough to route sound from my playback program through the DAW and into the convolver in order to listen to music. When I want to listen to music, it should be "load file, press play, listen and enjoy". NOT open multiple programs, figure out the complexities of Windows routing and DAW's, fiddle with VST, and then listen to music. So the only type of VST I use are the free ones that can be hosted on JRiver. Those tend to be rather limited in functionality, but even then it does enough for me.

If I ever figure out a way to "set and forget" a DAW so that it can host VST plugins, I will do so. But right now I am unable to figure it out. DAW's are intimidating, in the same way that I find CAD, Photoshop, C++, and any unfamiliar software to be intimidating. To acquire understanding, let alone mastery requires an investment of time beyond what I am willing to commit at this point in my life.

I know that ASR is host to quite a few people who know a lot more about VST plugins and DAW's than I do, so I hope that this thread draws a few of them to reply. I don't mind being wrong if I can learn from the experience.
 

Zensō

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My guess is that many audiophiles have not been exposed to VSTs since they’ve traditionally been used on the production side. If you’re on a Mac, you can run VSTs at the system level using SoundSource. I run Pro-Q3 and and a few other VSTs and this works really well.


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GXAlan

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I think it is a great idea. The problem is knowing how to tune the VST to the ideal settings *and* for the companies selling it, avoiding “counterfeit” settings or software piracy.
 

Ifrit

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Don’t forget to check what your plugin of choice is actually doing with something like PluginDoctor, you might be surprized a bit.

If you’re on a Mac, you can run VSTs at the system level using SoundSource.
Isn’t it easier to do so with AU versions of plugins?
 

Snoopy

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I mentioned in another forum that it is pretty simple to use EQ, upsampling, colouration filters etc to simulate tube or Vinyl sound..

The response was more or less what you expect after insulting someones child or religion.

And I believe it will stay like that for the majority of audiophiles.

They rather hunt down a OOP vinyl or buy a SACD player for 5000 bucks because everything else would be blasphemy.
 

fpitas

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I think the more clueless audiophiles are under the honest conviction that their gear has no distortions or colorations. Hard to get past that mindset. A guitarist I know uses DSP to simulate tube distortion, but he wants to use an SS amp to save his back hauling stuff to gigs.
 

JasonC331

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Peddleboard2 and Element (Kushview) are pretty easy to use to play around with VST's.
 

ahofer

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I think the more clueless audiophiles are under the honest conviction that their gear has no distortions or colorations. Hard to get past that mindset. A guitarist I know uses DSP to simulate tube distortion, but he wants to use an SS amp to save his back hauling stuff to gigs.
Yeah, there are cheap amp simulators (both analog and DSP) that you can use to go right into the board or a clean amp. I've seen class D for bass amps, are they using it for guitar now?
 

fpitas

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Yeah, there are cheap amp simulators (both analog and DSP) that you can use to go right into the board or a clean amp. I've seen class D for bass amps, are they using it for guitar now?
Yeah, that was years ago. He could simulate all the popular old tube amps like Marshall, Hiwatt, Fender, etc. His back thanked him!
 

LouB

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Kinda funny but in my world using a DAW/VST is not really listing to music. I've done a fair bit of multi-track complete recording & mixing/mastering using, all analog a mix of analog & digital & DAW/VST with all types of plug ins & thats the last thing I wanna do when I want to chill out & listen to some prerecorded music. I'm not your typical "audiophile" in that sense I guess.
If your preference is spending hours manipulating some pro's 2 track recordings knock yourself out but realize there are more reasons for an so called "audiophile" to not want to use a DAW/VST along there music listening. On another "note" some artists (with big budgets) will choose a location/studio for it's sound affect of the music being recorded, with that in mind why would you want to start manipulating that sound ?
 
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Cbdb2

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Using any effect on the song will not change the mix. You can't EQ, compress, add distortion, etc to just the rhythm guitar, or vocal. You can only effect the entire mix, as in mastering, which leaves you only a few options before you destroy the song.
 

sarumbear

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Zensō

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Kinda funny but in my world using a DAW/VST is not really listing to music. I've done a fair bit of multi-track complete recording & mixing/mastering using, all analog a mix of analog & digital & DAW/VST with all types of plug ins & thats the last thing I wanna do when I want to chill out & listen to some prerecorded music. I'm not your typical "audiophile" in that sense I guess.
If your preference is spending hours manipulating some pro's 2 track recordings knock yourself out but realize there are more reasons for an so called "audiophile" to not want to use a DAW/VST along there music listening. On another "note" some artists (with big budgets) will choose a location/studio for it's sound affect of the music being recorded, with that in mind why would you want to start manipulating that sound ?
VSTs are best used to correct for inaccuracies in reproduction, whether that’s correcting flaws in the frequency response of a headphone or speaker, or to correct for room issues. I don’t think anyone is talking about remastering specific songs which, of course, would be beyond silly.
 

ZolaIII

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Hey you buy 20 K speakers and 10 K amp and simply trow it in room and it must sound great because you paid for it.
VST are virtualisations of real or imaginary peaces of equipment/instruments. Those that are faithful and polished (which is rare like with anything else) will work and sound (regarding what they are supposed to do) good.
This day's I use only PTEq-X and mainly for bandwidth adjustment (sometimes for vocals and valve). Device it simulates is from end of 1950's and by all means great pasive vocal PEQ and I don't mind if such like to pay a grand or two for it as they still make them, I certainly won't.
 

Sokel

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One can use anything he likes.And it's easy,even foobar can be loaded with a gazillion of those.
I have some considerations though:

Our goal here is being true to source,right?Source is the recorded material,right?
That's why all this obsession with low noise-low distortion devices beyond any hint of audible degradation.

Use of VST's require extensive knowledge,both in use case and practice,I mean it's oxymoron saying that an end user will ever make better use of those if the sound engineers themselves have done a poor job with all their knowledge.

Last,after Dr Floyd's post here someone must ask himself what's really needed and if really everything looks like a nail when you got a hammer at hand as he says.

Knowledge is beautiful when it's whole,half knowledge on the other hand...
 
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