Why "audiophiles" don't use VSTs?

[Deleted member 58722]

Yeah you are right, headphones only. By the text I mean simulating the experience of listening to a track in a [professional-studio-with-high-end-monitors] (through headphones).

And it works rather well.

 

[boxerfan88]

Are they any free VST that emulates some of those exotic power cords?

Also, please suggest some free vinyl & tube VSTs. I’d like to check them out…thank you.

 

[Deleted member 58722]

My system has evolved thus. I was in the studio for the recording / mixing / mastering of a particular album ( amongst many ). When listening to
the finished item at home I decided my system needed more 'oomph" so I experimented with various sets of speakers until I got the response I was looking ( listening ) for. By my reasoning, subjectively, given that my system sounded 'correct ' for this album, it would be 'correct' for all , therefore any differences in response etc was down the the source, and therefore perfectly acceptable. If I think 'oh, the bass could be more forward in the mix' i don't reach for the eq, I accept that this was the way it was intended. I run laptop - usb - DAC - preamp - amp - speakers , job done. I rarely use all 800 Watts though...

 

[Philbo King]

I'd hate to see the day audiophile snake oil marketers start marketing VSTs. I can just see the bogus claims now - "This knob sets the simulated length of your power cord" Yuck! At least the current VST market is generally tools audio pros can use.

There are a couple of exceptions though. I saw one called something like Producers Knob that you let the producer or label A&R guy tweak till it satisfies their confirmation bias. (The knob doesn't actually do anything to the sound, it just lets the producer feel like they contributed something.)

 

[Anton S]

With apologies to the purists, I've been running my system as a “playback studio” for so long that half of my processors operate in the analog domain.

Been running down this road for decades and loving it every step of the way. The added bonus of taking an active role at the reproduction end is that I rarely get the "upgrade bug" because I can make the system sound like whatever I want at the moment. Larger venue? Enhanced dynamic range, sharper impact? Move the performance forward/back; widen or narrow the stage? No problem. Freakin' LOVE it! You do yours, and I'll do mine.

 

[2020]

I think it is a great idea. The problem is knowing how to tune the VST to the ideal settings *and* for the companies selling it, avoiding “counterfeit” settings or software piracy.

There is no such thing as ideal. It's like asking "what is the ideal type of art?"

The goal of production tools is to let the end user decide what they want to do. But audiophiles injected into this space become makeshift audio restorers, no experience so unsure of where to start.

 

[robwpdx]

Why "audiophiles" don't use VSTs? Concept is pretty clear - you would get objectively saying the most precise amp, speaker - entire audio rig - and then colorize signal digitally at source (well, you could route analog signal to the actual analog rig, but plugins mimic analog rigs so well already), add up some distortion (Ozone Pro Exciter, Fabfilter Saturn etc), EQ (Pro-Q etc).

I've been observing the audiophile community for a pretty long time now and I've noticed all conversations come down to one thing:
People just don't like the mix, it's literally that simple, either song is actually poorly mixed or people just don't enjoy the tonality that audio engineer offered them.
Also why don't we have DSP's with support for VSTs? (I don't know any, if you know one, let me know)

Maybe money is the issue as always? Amp can be sold for 5k USD, typical plugin goes for <500 USD (and that's most often the price of entire bundle!), so it might not be worth it for audiophile companies to change the mindset behind the "audio quality"

Or maybe, I don't like to put it this way, but maybe audiophiles are just too dumb and they think measured gear distortion is different from the same but digitally applied one? (Same thing goes for EQs etc)

I am an "audiophile" and former recording engineer with many many thousands of hours of live listening in the hall, no microphones or electronics - ears direct.

I am considering low cost ways in an accurate reproduction chain to bring vsts into my listening environment. There are many good parametric equalizers beyond analog, even often an ingredient in ASR reviews. A digital parametric equalizer is just an ingredient which may play with calibrated room EQ or headphones.

EQ IMO it does not violate the artistic intent of the recording/producing/mastering engineer.

Audiophiles may play with other of many non-linear plugins as they like. It was discussed in thread https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ones-that-understand-digital-vs-analog.43843/ where an equipment maker is adding and patenting unusual processing.

 

[Deleted member 58722]

With apologies to the purists, I've been running my system as a “playback studio” for so long that half of my processors operate in the analog domain.

Been running down this road for decades and loving it every step of the way. The added bonus of taking an active role at the reproduction end is that I rarely get the "upgrade bug" because I can make the system sound like whatever I want at the moment. Larger venue? Enhanced dynamic range, sharper impact? Move the performance forward/back; widen or narrow the stage? No problem. Freakin' LOVE it! You do yours, and I'll do mine.

Now that’s proper!

 

[VBoy]

I recently discovered that the Scheps Omni Channel 2 plugin, feeding the stock Cubase stereo widening plugin, works great for expanding the sound stage, before the signal goes to my "audiophile" poweramp feeding Klipsch speakers. It think it may sound even better when followed by an outboard mastering EQ and compressor, but it's hard to tell given changes in volume.

In any case, I'm also looking for "depth" in a plugin to apply to music from Spotify. You know that 3d, holographic tube thing audiophiles rave about... does that exist in plugin form? How about a plugin for "air" enhancement? And for making the speakers disappear? And for enhancing imaging? Are any of these qualities possible with VSTs?

To be clear, I'm looking for plugins to apply on the master bus, not plugins for individual tracks during mixing.

 

[markanini]

I recently discovered that the Scheps Omni Channel 2 plugin, feeding the stock Cubase stereo widening plugin, works great for expanding the sound stage, before the signal goes to my "audiophile" poweramp feeding Klipsch speakers. It think it may sound even better when followed by an outboard mastering EQ and compressor, but it's hard to tell given changes in volume.

In any case, I'm also looking for "depth" in a plugin to apply to music from Spotify. You know that 3d, holographic tube thing audiophiles rave about... does that exist in plugin form? How about a plugin for "air" enhancement? And for making the speakers disappear? And for enhancing imaging? Are any of these qualities possible with VSTs?

To be clear, I'm looking for plugins to apply on the master bus, not plugins for individual tracks during mixing.

This was the recording technicians job. If your room and speakers sounds different from what the technicians heard in the control try acoustically treating your room, or different speakers. If they failed find a different recording.

 

[ZolaIII]

I recently discovered that the Scheps Omni Channel 2 plugin, feeding the stock Cubase stereo widening plugin, works great for expanding the sound stage, before the signal goes to my "audiophile" poweramp feeding Klipsch speakers. It think it may sound even better when followed by an outboard mastering EQ and compressor, but it's hard to tell given changes in volume.

In any case, I'm also looking for "depth" in a plugin to apply to music from Spotify. You know that 3d, holographic tube thing audiophiles rave about... does that exist in plugin form? How about a plugin for "air" enhancement? And for making the speakers disappear? And for enhancing imaging? Are any of these qualities possible with VSTs?

To be clear, I'm looking for plugins to apply on the master bus, not plugins for individual tracks during mixing.

PTEq-X as vocal pasive tube PEQ (4 tubes to choose and bandwidth regulator) and play with MConvolutionEZ and MFreeformPhase (come together with bunch other plugins in the package) for phase correction and convolution simulation of bunch of spaces (tho more useful for other things as convolution corrections for speakers especially for highs if you ask me). And it's all for free so enjoy.

 

[mitchco]

Steinberg released the VST interface specification and SDK in 1996. Its the defacto standard in music production. Today, KVR Marketplace lists thousands of plugins.

As someone who was a pro recording and mixing engineer for 10 years back in the 80's it is mind blowing to watch the transformation from a huge physical device, worth 10's of thousands of dollars be modeled as a VST plugin for $200.

I am very intimate with the sonic signature of the Studer A800 spending thousands of hours with this device recording, mixing, and calibrating. Listening to the plugin sounds identical to the physical device. The bass bump, tape saturation, etc., is all there. The above slide is from a presentation on Understanding the state of the art of Digital Room Correction where I come at it from DSP modelling of a speaker and how we can restore the ideal minimum phase response of the speaker in a room to our ears.

I have been using plugins for decades, including creating my own. I think most audiophiles have not been exposed to plugins, especially, how powerful and sophisticated they are and how plugins can benefit your music listening experience. As an example, convolution plugins such as Hang Loose Convolver and Dirac Live Processor can add high resolution digital room correction (DRC) to your listening setup, or convolution for high resolution headphone filters. Another example might be using uBACCH or X-Talk-Shaper cross talk cancellation plugins for spatial audio capabilities. Looking for Active Room Treatment, try Room Shaper, or maybe you are into Auro-3D or DTS Neural Surround UpMix for immersive audio, or want to try an ultra-cool dynamic equalizer.

In an effort to assist audiophiles with an easy way to use plugins, my company released Hang Loose Host which is a simple application for hosting plugins on Windows, Mac, Linux, and Raspberry Pi. You can try both the Host bundled with the convolver for free 14 trial. Check out what DSP plugins can do to enhance your listening experience.

 

[LouB]

I know this is hobby for people & I get it, so using VST's & plug ins to enhance your hobby is a cool thing.
But IMHO, just because you can now get something that replicates a 60K machine from the 80's for a few hundred bucks doesn't mean the use of such plug ins make music any better.
I guess it just boils down to the age old adage of "beauty is in eye of the beholder"
So to OP's original question, some of us don't want to use VST's for the simple fact that 100% of the music I listen to is already mixed & mastered and my simple 2 channel system will reproduce it fairly well and it sounds wonderful. Maybe I need to look up the definition of audiophile

 

[mitchco]

@LouB You are missing the point. For example, If streaming Spotify and wanting to add eq or digital room correction or maybe cross talk cancellation, there are plugins that can provide that capability. That has nothing to do with remixing or remastering. The tape machine to DSP plugin is a simple example of how powerful/sophisticated DSP has become and in my opinion the main reason why folks don't use DSP plugins, as you have just illustrated.

 

[boxerfan88]

Why VST is not widely used is probably because most HiFi equipment doesn’t support VST.

To use VST for HiFi playback needs some technical knowledge, and requires the source to be a workstation running specialised playback software like foobar2000.

 

[kemmler3D]

I am considering low cost ways in an accurate reproduction chain to bring vsts into my listening environment.

The cheapest (easy-to-do) way I know of is to get a USB interface with optical in/out, (e.g. this) a refurbished Windows mini-PC (e.g. one of these) and then use EQAPO to load the VSTs.

There are probably cheaper ways, but none I know of that don't require you to mess with command line stuff, etc. You can have a lot of DSP in the chain before your DAC for $150.

If you have multiple sources you can get one of these: https://www.tindie.com/products/beni_skate/automatic-spdif-opticalrca-audio-switch/ ... there are cheaper ones but none that I know of that switch automatically.

 

[kemmler3D]

You know that 3d, holographic tube thing audiophiles rave about... does that exist in plugin form?

It's debatable as to whether it exists at all.

How about a plugin for "air" enhancement?

Boost EQ by about +3dB and/or add harmonic distortion above 10khz.

And for making the speakers disappear?

No plugin, just better speakers or room treatment.

And for enhancing imaging? Are any of these qualities possible with VSTs?

Improving imaging by adding effects on the master channel is probably quite hard to do.

But I think you might want to try the BBE Sonic Maximizer plugin for a little of all of that. Supposedly it shifts the phase of treble frequencies while boosting them a bit which leads to some of the subjective effects you mentioned above... although I am maybe a little hazy on the details. Anyway, I use it in my (amateur) mixes a lot.

Also check out Variety of Sound, lots of good, free plugins there for subtle tube effects along the lines of what you are talking about.