Vintage vs Modern; Class A vs A/B

[Phorize]

Is USD$2400.00 a going rate for these bad boys when the caps have been replaced?

If you are seriously considering it I’d ask for a detailed service schedule with parts numbers etc, I’d expect that not all of the electrolytics/some diodes would be available anymore at the same specs. The internal case work is ok but not immaculate. The aluminium corner posts condition (slightly chipped) makes me concerned about what I can’t see in the photos. I think if you shop around you’ll find one in better physical condition-if it was in serviced at least you’d be able to do it yourself or commission a service from someone qualified.

 

[anmpr1]

If you are seriously considering it I’d ask for a detailed service schedule with parts numbers etc, I’d expect that not all of the electrolytics/some diodes would be available anymore at the same specs. The internal case work is ok but not immaculate. The aluminium corner posts condition (slightly chipped) makes me concerned about what I can’t see in the photos. I think if you shop around you’ll find one in better physical condition-if it was in serviced at least you’d be able to do it yourself or commission a service from someone qualified.

The seller writes: This extremely clean unit was meticulously cared for and has been completely restored and has had all electrolytic capacitors replaced with high quality audio grade capacitors. Transistors have been upgraded and heat prone resistors have been upgraded to much more heat dissipating high quality resistors.

So, some parts are evidently electrically equivalent, or better. Asking what parts were used is reasonable. Asking for post-renovation measurement specs, or even 'scope photos, would not be an unreasonable request, for a several thousand dollar item.

To me the cosmetic condition is not bad... for an almost fifty year old item. It would look better in the walnut sleeve.

FWIW, I'd never buy anything like this unless I could either, a) fix it myself; or b) had someone in my area that could overhaul it.

 

[Phorize]

The seller writes: This extremely clean unit was meticulously cared for and has been completely restored and has had all electrolytic capacitors replaced with high quality audio grade capacitors. Transistors have been upgraded and heat prone resistors have been upgraded to much more heat dissipating high quality resistors.

So, some parts are evidently electrically equivalent, or better. Asking what parts were used is reasonable. Asking for post-renovation measurement specs, or even 'scope photos, would not be an unreasonable request, for a several thousand dollar item.

To me the cosmetic condition is not bad... for an almost fifty year old item. It would look better in the walnut sleeve.

FWIW, I'd never buy anything like this unless I could either, a) fix it myself; or b) had someone in my area that could overhaul it.

A request for measurements is very reasonable, else one can assume that parts were just replaced blindly, and issues missed completely.

 

[mhardy6647]

I'm curious about what you guys think about this:

Accuphase E-202 Integrated Amplifier with Meter for sale online | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Accuphase E-202 Integrated Amplifier with Meter at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Manual here:

https://www.accuphase.com/cat/e-202en.pdf

Well... I'd sell a kidney to pick one up.

 

[watchnerd]

I had one and bitterly regret selling it.

What do you regret?

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Yeah.

On the other hand, you only have to endure the PITA of bare wire once in a while.

It's not like you're hooking up and disconnecting speakers all the time.

I wish that barrier strips like on this unit would have become standard. They are among the most reliable and secure termination methods there are, which is why they are used in some very critical applications. They are ideally meant to be used with spade lugs. Early gear like my McIntosh MC240 used them, among other brands, but some marketing genius thought banana plugs would be the wiser choice - this is probably the same idiot (or the son of the idiot) who came up with the RCA plug.

 

[watchnerd]

I wish that barrier strips like on this unit would have become standard. They are among the most reliable and secure termination methods there are, which is why they are used in some very critical applications. They are ideally meant to be used with spade lugs. Early gear like my McIntosh MC240 used them, among other brands, but some marketing genius thought banana plugs would be the wiser choice - this is probably the same idiot (or the son of the idiot) who came up with the RCA plug.

View attachment 170857

They seem to still be reasonably common in installation-oriented gear and some pro gear.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

They seem to still be reasonably common in installation-oriented gear and some pro gear.

Yes, they are still very common. Just not in consumer HiFi.

 

[Phorize]

What do you regret?

VU meters, the knob feel, subsonic filter, tone controls, aluminium as far as the eye can see.

Now I have 2 SOTA blackboxes that look like any other black box. That’s progress.

 

[watchnerd]

VU meters, the knob feel, subsonic filter, tone controls, aluminium as far as the eye can see.

Now I have 2 SOTA blackboxes that look like any other black box. That’s progress.

Yeah, that's my issue with my amps, too.

Most guests don't even know what they are.

I don't have any emotional connection to them, and there is no tactile pleasure.

 

[St1n]

Yeah, that's my issue with my amps, too.

Most guests don't even know what they are.

I don't have any emotional connection to them, and there is no tactile pleasure.

Exactly why I went down the vintage rabbit hole to begin with. Sure, they may not be considered SOTA now, or may not as power efficient, no balanced connections, but they still sound damn good, and most look way more interesting than what we have today.

Note: most of these were built before I was even born, so it's not like it's just nostalgia in my case

 

[anmpr1]

I wish that barrier strips like on this unit would have become standard. They are among the most reliable and secure termination methods there are, which is why they are used in some very critical applications. They are ideally meant to be used with spade lugs. Early gear like my McIntosh MC240 used them, among other brands, but some marketing genius thought banana plugs would be the wiser choice - this is probably the same idiot (or the son of the idiot) who came up with the RCA plug.

Spade lugs can be tightened firmly, but to be honest, the first thing I did with my Dyna amps was to swap them out for five-way binding posts. Many times the strips were on rather flimsy phenolic boards that had a tendency to age poorly, crack and split, especially if you torqued lugs tight.

Japanese amplifiers of this era often used bare wire spring clips for speaker terminals. The Accuphase E-202 is actually a variation on that theme, where a screw loosens a plate, the bare wire is inserted, and then the plate against the wire is tightened. This is no doubt more secure than a typical spring type of connection.

For integrated amplifier comparison, in 1977 Audio magazine's equipment listings, the E-202 (called Kensonic by Accuphase, imported by Teac) is rated at 100 watts/ch into 8 ohms. Accuphase documentation indicates 140 FTC watts into 4 ohms, so it had some current capability. List was $750.00 (USD). 43 pounds.

The equivalent Pioneer (SA-9900) was rated at 110 FTC watts into 8 ohms, with the same rating into 4 ohms. $750.00, 44 pounds.

A Lux L-100 with comparable power specs listed for $995.00.

The top 'monster' Japanese integrated amplifier of the era was probably the Sansui AU 20000, rated at a whopping 170 FTC 8 ohm watts per channel, with a list price of $1000.00. 52 pounds.

Domestically, a McIntosh MA-6100 rated 70 FTC watts/ch, and sold for $700.00.

Generally, you could find a pretty solid 'discount' on Pioneer and Sansui. Accuphase and Lux were less common. I don't recall those brands being discounted, or ever sold mail order. By that time, McIntosh had a well established dealer network, and were almost always sold at list.

From a marketing standpoint, this was the beginning of the 'underground tweako' era. It was difficult for Japanese companies to move high priced integrated amplifiers in America. Most consumers wanted 'all in one receivers', and 'high-enders' gravitated more toward boutique separates.

 

[watchnerd]

A Lux L-100 with comparable power specs listed for $995.00.

For sale for $2K in 2021 dollars:

Luxman L100 integrated amp & T110 Tuner

Beautiful Luxman L100 in very good condition. Very well built and musical. It looks like a piece of art. I have the matching T-110 tuner as well. Beautiful set together.Controls just cleaned by my tech.Would prefer local pick up, although may ship if packed professionally. Asking price plus...

www.usaudiomart.com

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Spade lugs can be tightened firmly, but to be honest, the first thing I did with my Dyna amps was to swap them out for five-way binding posts. Many times the strips were on rather flimsy phenolic boards that had a tendency to age poorly, crack and split, especially if you torqued lugs tight.

View attachment 170887

Japanese amplifiers of this era often used bare wire spring clips for speaker terminals. The Accuphase E-202 is actually a variation on that theme, where a screw loosens a plate, the bare wire is inserted, and then the plate against the wire is tightened. This is no doubt more secure than a typical spring type of connection.

View attachment 170885

For integrated amplifier comparison, in 1977 Audio magazine's equipment listings, the E-202 (called Kensonic by Accuphase, imported by Teac) is rated at 100 watts/ch into 8 ohms. Accuphase documentation indicates 140 FTC watts into 4 ohms, so it had some current capability. List was $750.00 (USD). 43 pounds.

The equivalent Pioneer (SA-9900) was rated at 110 FTC watts into 8 ohms, with the same rating into 4 ohms. $750.00, 44 pounds.

A Lux L-100 with comparable power specs listed for $995.00.

The top 'monster' Japanese integrated amplifier of the era was probably the Sansui AU 20000, rated at a whopping 170 FTC 8 ohm watts per channel, with a list price of $1000.00. 52 pounds.

Domestically, a McIntosh MA-6100 rated 70 FTC watts/ch, and sold for $700.00.

Generally, you could find a pretty solid 'discount' on Pioneer and Sansui. Accuphase and Lux were less common. I don't recall those brands being discounted, or ever sold mail order. By that time, McIntosh had a well established dealer network, and were almost always sold at list.

From a marketing standpoint, this was the beginning of the 'underground tweako' era. It was difficult for Japanese companies to move high priced integrated amplifiers in America. Most consumers wanted 'all in one receivers', and 'high-enders' gravitated more toward boutique separates.

I deliberately said barrier strips and posted a picture to be very clear that these are fundamentally different than the low quality 'terminal strips' typical on earlier gear. Barrier strips are distinguished by more substantial construction, better quality terminals, and a physical barrier between positions to mitigate shorts. That's why barrier strips are used on some safety critical industrial gear.

Barrier strips were used typically on higher end gear such as McIntosh, Audio Research etc. The price of barrier strips is probably lower for manufacturers to incorporate than designer 5 way bananna jacks. They just aren't 'sexy' for marketers.

 

[anmpr1]

For sale for $2K in 2021 dollars:

Luxman L100 integrated amp & T110 Tuner

Beautiful Luxman L100 in very good condition. Very well built and musical. It looks like a piece of art. I have the matching T-110 tuner as well. Beautiful set together.Controls just cleaned by my tech.Would prefer local pick up, although may ship if packed professionally. Asking price plus...

www.usaudiomart.com

From an aesthetic standpoint, I always preferred Accuphase over anything else. For value, the Pioneer. Sansui's upscale amps had those black face-plates, and that never appealed to me.

Personal anecdote: A couple of years ago I almost bought a Luxman integrated. From an on-line dealer-- I think it was Music Direct. The new ones have that classic Japanese feng shui, but the company really didn't have much of a US dealer network, and spending five large for an integrated amp, even a nice looking one, was too risky for me to pull the trigger on. I also think Lux had just changed US distributors, and I didn't have a good feeling about that. The comparable Mac product was off-putting to me, for some reason. Anyhow, for the same dollars I was able to buy an AHB2 and DAC3 HGC. Not as nice to look at, I guess. But otherwise, hard to beat. An outboard phono stage and I was set to go...

 

[watchnerd]

From an aesthetic standpoint, I always preferred Accuphase over anything else. For value, the Pioneer. Sansui's upscale amps had those black face-plates, and that never appealed to me.

Personal anecdote: A couple of years ago I almost bought a Luxman integrated. From an on-line dealer-- I think it was Music Direct. The new ones have that classic Japanese feng shui, but the company really didn't have much of a US dealer network, and spending five large for an integrated amp, even a nice looking one, was too risky for me to pull the trigger on. I also think Lux had just changed US distributors, and I didn't have a good feeling about that. The comparable Mac product was off-putting to me, for some reason. Anyhow, for the same dollars I was able to buy an AHB2 and DAC3 HGC. Not as nice to look at, I guess. But otherwise, hard to beat. An outboard phono stage and I was set to go...

AHB has impeccable measurements.

But it does nothing for me as a physical object of art.

I care a lot less about measurements than I used to, given how most differences are below the audibility threshold, especially when I listen to LPs.

 

[Inner Space]

Barrier strips were used typically on higher end gear such as McIntosh, Audio Research etc. The price of barrier strips is probably lower for manufacturers to incorporate than designer 5 way bananna jacks. They just aren't 'sexy' for marketers.

My earliest pair of La Scalas have barrier strips - superior in every way to bananas. The only issue was I had to buy a stubby, short-but-wide screwdriver, to fit upright in the available space.

 

[anmpr1]

I deliberately said barrier strips ...

Are those barrier strips, then, on the E-202? One of my Yamaha integrated amps has a variation of the Accuphae plate on wire terminal. But instead of a screw to hold the plate, you have massive hand tightened plastic knobs.

The most secure I've found are Speakons. Once inserted, they won't come out.

I agree with you about RCA. Horrible plugs. The first manufacturer I recall that reacted to RCA plugs in the context of consumer hi-fi was Mark Levinson, who sold his gear with camac connectors. Expensive and incompatible with anything else. Not sure why he didn't go with XLR, since he was always on the borderline of pro audio.

 

[anmpr1]

My earliest pair of La Scalas have barrier strips - superior in every way to bananas. The only issue was I had to buy a stubby, short-but-wide screwdriver, to fit upright in the available space.

If you use banana plugs, it's best to use the locking or expanding type. I have a set from Benchmark, and when tightened are quite firm.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Are those barrier strips, then, on the E-202? One of my Yamaha integrated amps has a variation of the Accuphae plate on wire terminal. But instead of a screw to hold the plate, you have massive hand tightened plastic knobs.

The most secure I've found are Speakons. Once inserted, they won't come out.

I agree with you about RCA. Horrible plugs. The first manufacturer I recall that reacted to RCA plugs in the context of consumer hi-fi was Mark Levinson, who sold his gear with camac connectors. Expensive and incompatible with anything else. Not sure why he didn't go with XLR, since he was always on the borderline of pro audio.

Yes, XLR is probably the most reliable input connector - in decades, I've never experienced a bad connection with an XLR. Speakons are good too, but are a relatively recent development. We use them on one of our professional amps.

The RCA plug was originally called the "RMA" plug for Radio Manufacturers Association or something like that and was used to connect a crystal cartridge from a turntable to a radio input. It was the cheapest possible connector and the designer ones we have now are just lipstick on a pig.

I usually use barrier strips with feed-through terminals like below so the only holes to drill are for the feed-through and the screws which secure the barrier strip to the chassis.