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The REAL Problem of March Audio's Sointuva WG (Review, Measurements and Reinforcements with Klippel device)
- Thread starter Nuyes
- Start date
Looks like the 4 sides are solid wood though
First the ach01 specIal amp and then to M-Audio Transit USB ADC connected to MacBook laptop and FuzzMeasure. Double sided tape is just Scotch branded but it works. Thin enough.
Sokel
Master Contributor
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I owned Olympica and yes,are a bit narrow in terms of response high.
Now add that my side walls are > 3.5 meters away from the speakers and you can understand that the image on the LP (2.8 meters away) was rock solid with the speakers angeled mostly towards it but in in a narrow spot,thing that it didn't bother me since it's only me listening and it's only for stereo listening,no HC.
They where not bad at all,I just needed something else for my big room.
I maybe find my measurements with REW to post.
Now add that my side walls are > 3.5 meters away from the speakers and you can understand that the image on the LP (2.8 meters away) was rock solid with the speakers angeled mostly towards it but in in a narrow spot,thing that it didn't bother me since it's only me listening and it's only for stereo listening,no HC.
They where not bad at all,I just needed something else for my big room.
I maybe find my measurements with REW to post.
Holmz
Major Contributor
I think that hysterysis is happening in the core, which if it is iron or steel, is different than air.
And a magnetic field interaction with a steel wire might be different than with copper.
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Holmz
Major Contributor
Nope.
It is the core that causes the hysterysis.
The coil only generates a magnetic field.
For a post the speaker wire generate a magnetic field.
Whether is matters or is heard we can debate.
But the physics of air being excited by a magnetic field is different than for iron.
Holmz
Major Contributor
An inductor on it own has no hysterysis to speak of.
“Thetes” in this case points to an iron core being a lower class way to increase the inductance without having to make an air core inductor massive.
And most transformers doing significant work also use iron cores… they do not use copper cores.
I posted some links earlier, and the first one was in the 1800s.
Do say that the core does not exist with a coil is a bit of a circular argument. And more so in a toroidal coil.
MAB
Major Contributor
I purposely sidestep the hysteresis discussion that follows, I think it is off on a tangent. If somebody disagrees, please draw the equivalent circuit so we can discuss. To be clear, I think it is not physical or relevant. But, yes a steel nut on a binding post will induce a small additional parasitic inductance to the circuit which will be measurable with the correct equipment.
And we do have proof, @ctrl measured this phenomenon across different binding posts and showed with incredible detail the inaudibility of binding-posts which is directly relevant to this discussion:
Different Binding Posts - is it audible?
The influence of BP on the sound of loudspeakers has often been controversially discussed. It even goes so far that individual voices describe the influence of binding posts as immense and recommend only very high-quality BPs - That made me curious. The full mini series: Capacitor...
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No they don't, binding post upgrades are a ripoff.
One of the legs of the experiment is binding-posts made of old steel construction nails. Nails will have a bigger potential impact than the steel nuts used to mount the binding posts on the Sonus Faber that Danny so condescendingly shook his head at. The steel posts will create a small inductive component to the impedance of the wires, that impedance will be frequency-dependent and will potentially change the frequency response. @ctrl measured that parasitic inductance and the nails indeed have the highest inductance which leads to the largest corresponding frequency response change. The really good news is this is on the order of a 0.1dB at 20kHz for the nails, which is just not detectable, and is lower than (for instance) day to day variations in temperature, pressure and humidity. Here is the frequency response data that @ctrl provided (normalized to wire-only), I added the arrow and text to show the response of the nails.
The nuts will have less impact than the nails, and 0.1 dB is already so small, I do want to acknowledge the careful data collection here by @ctrl. If human ear was used for this experiment, no chance on detecting these differences, you would start hallucinating. Speaking of hallucinations, this is good news for people who don't use cable risers; imagine if you accidentally ran a cable over a nail in your floor or near some metal conduit or pipes in your wall, or maybe an ancient iron sarcophagus
. Everybody would need special cable risers to prevent all of these parasitic issues from distorting the signal.@ctrl also has investigated fancy capacitors and resistors, since Danny does his condescending monolog about how crap the Sonus Faber crossover components are
. Funny thing is, when Danny replaces all those components, the new film capacitors and air-core inductors will have different DC-resistance that will actually induce a change in frequency response that might be audible! It may even sound better, or more revealing, or just different. If Danny replaces a ferrite core inductor or an electrolytic cap he's not giving you better capacitance, he's giving you new DC-resistances which to first-order is like playing with the resistive padding and changing the Q of the filters. He is a random part-swapper. I haven't heard any of Danny's work, but listening to him butcher physics is making Ohm roll in the grave
. People did lots of hard work to get us to our understanding of the physics of circuits, some of them actually had horrible life experiences doing it, and to hear this YouTube flat-earth garbage is beyond irritating.
Holmz
Major Contributor
I purposely sidestep the hysteresis discussion that follows, I think it is off on a tangent. If somebody disagrees, please draw the equivalent circuit so we can discuss.
…
I haven't heard any of Danny's work, but listening to him butcher physics is making Ohm roll in the grave
Yep…
It was only germane in the context of Danny’s comments, and to his followers.
Well done post, by the way.
It does not surprise me. I went pro audio for this reason.
When I bought my first expensive speaker (with a loan) I realized a few things.
Firstly I was paying mostly for the furniture value.
Secondly all components are off the shelf.
Even though the designer is well qualified and worked for multiple companies even respected mass market ones the design is perfect in only one place. His listening room and to his tastes.
The math is probably accurate and the crossover design and all the mathematical aspects may be be correct for the drive units in that size box.
The final tweaks are done through listening. What does that mean?
If you place the speakers in his room and sit in the position he was sitting at to tune them they will sound like he wants them to sound. This may or may not be accurate even in his space - it’s simply a matter of taste.
Now this was a clever designer who considered what kind of room the owner would use these in and whether they should be close to the wall or away.
So perhaps his listening space was meant to emulate the average customer’s listening room.
At the end of the day there are just so many subjective factors at play.
I don’t think (correct me if i’m wrong) most designers have access to an anechoic chamber or now a Klippel to check their designs.
Most of them are focused on little tweaks like capacitor/inductor value and type. Something little like putting a felt pad in front of the tweeter mount. Or they may time align the drivers by slanting the front baffle.
Mostly they are a mathematical exercise is getting those chosen drivers to perform as designed in that box. With special consideration to one or 2 normally overlooked factors for example time alignment.
The game has certainly changed in last decade but most of those old audiophile companies are still making products which consider perhaps one or two factors and pushing to optimize just those 2 and marketing the product based on those strengths.
Today the technology is so far advanced that almost everything can be considered directivity, diffraction, power handling, distortion, radiation pattern, frequency response and then made into a circumspectly optimized design.
I sort of laugh when I see designs in this day and age which are results of the old school loudspeaker cookbooks.
That’s why they had so many designs in them. You first chose which constraint you wanted to optimize for and then went with the design that best addressed that constraint.
Each customer also has one or 2 constraints in their listening spaces that most benefit from being addressed. But ideally all would be considered and addressed.
I wish manufacturers would be more clear about which aspect their product is optimized for rather than trying to target the entire market. However I can understand that the designer wants the entire marketplace to be the potential market for their design to sell as many as possible.
These are all compromised it just matters which compromises you will accept.
Holmz
Major Contributor
That is a long post.
Is the implicit message that you would rather have Genelecs than these speakers?
Or how does this relate to the thread?
Nowhere did I mention Genelec.
I would take any pro audio maker over most of the “audiophile” stuff out there.
The point was to explain how a lot of so called audiophile stuff is catering to a fan base. Some products and some rooms just work together. Some designers preferences may click with your own.
Personally I would take something whose goal is to be accurate and then eq in my preferences.
We’ve all seen the ASR review of the new Wilson Audio speaker.
Some people just like it and who am I to argue?
Holmz
Major Contributor
OK - got it.,
But there was Erin’s review…
These seem to align with you goal of, “ Personally I would take something whose goal is to be accurate and then eq in my preferences. ”
Fair enough. These are pretty incredible. I just have perhaps some OCD about things like sealing the box etc. I also prefer active speakers and feel strongly about that.
A part of me wonders what if I got the Dutch and Dutch 8c. Given my new listening distance point source is less important than cardioid bass. Also higher SPL is more important to me now.
If I had to add a sub I would figure out a way using a mini dsp.
Or perhaps using a receiver’s bass management.
So many ways to skin the cat. Sometimes you bought a scalpel when you really need a skinning knife.
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