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The REAL Problem of March Audio's Sointuva WG (Review, Measurements and Reinforcements with Klippel device)

Holmz

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It does not surprise me. I went pro audio for this reason.

When I bought my first expensive speaker (with a loan) I realized a few things.

Firstly I was paying mostly for the furniture value.

Secondly all components are off the shelf.

Even though the designer is well qualified and worked for multiple companies even respected mass market ones the design is perfect in only one place. His listening room and to his tastes.

The math is probably accurate and the crossover design and all the mathematical aspects may be be correct for the drive units in that size box.

The final tweaks are done through listening. What does that mean?

If you place the speakers in his room and sit in the position he was sitting at to tune them they will sound like he wants them to sound. This may or may not be accurate even in his space - it’s simply a matter of taste.

Now this was a clever designer who considered what kind of room the owner would use these in and whether they should be close to the wall or away.

So perhaps his listening space was meant to emulate the average customer’s listening room.

At the end of the day there are just so many subjective factors at play.

I don’t think (correct me if i’m wrong) most designers have access to an anechoic chamber or now a Klippel to check their designs.

Most of them are focused on little tweaks like capacitor/inductor value and type. Something little like putting a felt pad in front of the tweeter mount. Or they may time align the drivers by slanting the front baffle.

Mostly they are a mathematical exercise is getting those chosen drivers to perform as designed in that box. With special consideration to one or 2 normally overlooked factors for example time alignment.

The game has certainly changed in last decade but most of those old audiophile companies are still making products which consider perhaps one or two factors and pushing to optimize just those 2 and marketing the product based on those strengths.

Today the technology is so far advanced that almost everything can be considered directivity, diffraction, power handling, distortion, radiation pattern, frequency response and then made into a circumspectly optimized design.

I sort of laugh when I see designs in this day and age which are results of the old school loudspeaker cookbooks.

That’s why they had so many designs in them. You first chose which constraint you wanted to optimize for and then went with the design that best addressed that constraint.

Each customer also has one or 2 constraints in their listening spaces that most benefit from being addressed. But ideally all would be considered and addressed.

I wish manufacturers would be more clear about which aspect their product is optimized for rather than trying to target the entire market. However I can understand that the designer wants the entire marketplace to be the potential market for their design to sell as many as possible.

These are all compromised it just matters which compromises you will accept.

That is a long post.

Is the implicit message that you would rather have Genelecs than these speakers?
Or how does this relate to the thread?
 

srrxr71

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That is a long post.

Is the implicit message that you would rather have Genelecs than these speakers?
Or how does this relate to the thread?
Nowhere did I mention Genelec.

I would take any pro audio maker over most of the “audiophile” stuff out there.

The point was to explain how a lot of so called audiophile stuff is catering to a fan base. Some products and some rooms just work together. Some designers preferences may click with your own.

Personally I would take something whose goal is to be accurate and then eq in my preferences.

We’ve all seen the ASR review of the new Wilson Audio speaker.

Some people just like it and who am I to argue?
 

Holmz

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Nowhere did I mention Genelec.

I would take any pro audio maker over most of the “audiophile” stuff out there.

The point was to explain how a lot of so called audiophile stuff is catering to a fan base. Some products and some rooms just work together. Some designers preferences may click with your own.

Personally I would take something whose goal is to be accurate and then eq in my preferences.

We’ve all seen the ASR review of the new Wilson Audio speaker.

Some people just like it and who am I to argue?

OK - got it.,
But there was Erin’s review…


These seem to align with you goal of, “ Personally I would take something whose goal is to be accurate and then eq in my preferences. ”
 

srrxr71

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OK - got it.,
But there was Erin’s review…


These seem to align with you goal of, “ Personally I would take something whose goal is to be accurate and then eq in my preferences. ”
Fair enough. These are pretty incredible. I just have perhaps some OCD about things like sealing the box etc. I also prefer active speakers and feel strongly about that.

A part of me wonders what if I got the Dutch and Dutch 8c. Given my new listening distance point source is less important than cardioid bass. Also higher SPL is more important to me now.

If I had to add a sub I would figure out a way using a mini dsp.

Or perhaps using a receiver’s bass management.

So many ways to skin the cat. Sometimes you bought a scalpel when you really need a skinning knife.
 
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Holmz

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Fair enough. These are pretty incredible. I just have perhaps some OCD about things like sealing the box etc. I also prefer active speakers and feel strongly about that.

A part of me wonders what if I got the Dutch and Dutch 8c. Given my new listening distance point source is less important than cardioid bass. Also higher SPL is more important to me now.

If I had to add a sub I would figure out a way using a mini dsp.

Or perhaps using a receiver’s bass management.

So many ways to skin the cat. Sometimes you bought a scalpel when you really need a skinning knife.

Well these speakers with the XO outside of it, could allow one to go active.
I tried, but was not successful in closing that deal.
 

srrxr71

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Well these speakers with the XO outside of it, could allow one to go active.
I tried, but was not successful in closing that deal.
Yes at one point I had fantasies of building my own 3 or 4 way speaker.

This would be a much better option. They solved a lot of the physics that I would never be able to. I don’t understand waveguides.

Now even crossovers, really how much do I know? I might optimize for one thing and ruin something else.

I might hear it and like it but be oblivious to something else.

It’s far more formidable challenge than it seems. Far greater minds have been at this problem with some really half baked ideas.

The problem here is the price. At $4000 it’s not much further to have someone else do it for me.
 

Holmz

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Yes at one point I had fantasies of building my own 3 or 4 way speaker.

This would be a much better option. They solved a lot of the physics that I would never be able to. I don’t understand waveguides.

Now even crossovers, really how much do I know? I might optimize for one thing and ruin something else.

I might hear it and like it but be oblivious to something else.

It’s far more formidable challenge than it seems. Far greater minds have been at this problem with some really half baked ideas.

The problem here is the price. At $4000 it’s not much further to have someone else do it for me.

I agree in general, but the idea of an active XO in DSP/software is a bit easier than woodwork and soldering. Have you seen the 2 hour youtube on speaker phase from Rene?

A lot of the $4k cost is in the drivers and passive radiators.
 

poxymoron

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I was shocked to see if reviewed by... What-Hi-Fi?...:oops:

In fact, it was originally by Sound+Image, which is based in Australia. That makes a bit more sense.

Pros​

  • +
    Huge sound from a standmount speaker
  • +
    Irresistible enthusiasm
  • +
    Gorgeous finishes

Sigh....

As with most of their reviews, I suspect that it wasn't a case of What Hi-Fi looking to review these speakers, more a case of these speakers looking for What Hi-Fi to review them. If you know what I mean.
 

restorer-john

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In fact, it was originally by Sound+Image, which is based in Australia. That makes a bit more sense.

Sound and image was an offshoot from Australia HiFi back in the day. It was a total lifestyle magazine, with absolutely zero substance, just pretty pictures and advertiser press releases. And 'reviews' that were just fluff pieces.

We used to get a ton of them (and Australian HiFi magazines) because the Australia wide buying group advertised in those rags. Each month, I'd fan them out on the listening room coffee tables for people to take for free.

But, they were very useful in getting new products some much needed exposure and definitely created interest.
 

Holmz

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Sigh....

As with most of their reviews, I suspect that it wasn't a case of What Hi-Fi looking to review these speakers, more a case of these speakers looking for What Hi-Fi to review them. If you know what I mean.

I don’t know what you mean, you may have to explain it.
 

fluid

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He is saying it is likely the manufacturer of the speaker asked and offered for the speakers to be reviewed in the magazine. Given that this is how it always happens in the popular press I can't see why that is a problem. No one can buy a speaker if they haven't heard of it, getting your speaker reviewed in a popular magazine is a good way to help. Most magazines rarely write negative reviews especially if the vendor has purchased enough advertising space with them.
 

Holmz

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He is saying it is likely the manufacturer of the speaker asked and offered for the speakers to be reviewed in the magazine. Given that this is how it always happens in the popular press I can't see why that is a problem. No one can buy a speaker if they haven't heard of it, getting your speaker reviewed in a popular magazine is a good way to help. Most magazines rarely write negative reviews especially if the vendor has purchased enough advertising space with them.

Ok - the other interpritation would have been that the magazine were a bunch of Bummble-Fcks , and needed gear to be spoon fed to them to review.
As they didn’t know they existed or how to find them, etc.

or…. maybe both interpretations at once??

But it is not a dishonour to get them written up In any case.


…. No one can buy a speaker if they haven't heard of it, …

Some people actually did buy them without hearing them, so saying “no one can” is bounding it too far.

I on the other hand heard them, and needed to await the review to make sure my ears heard correctly.
And I still do not have a set (of speakers).
 

fluid

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Some people actually did buy them without hearing them, so saying “no one can” is bounding it too far.
I didn’t mean “heard of” to be the same thing as “listened to”.

To be clear if you do not know the speaker exists it will be very hard for you to want to buy it

The readership of ASR and Erin’s Audio Corner don’t make up that much of the overall speaker buying population, looking for brand awareness outside of that makes complete commercial sense.
 

poxymoron

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He is saying it is likely the manufacturer of the speaker asked and offered for the speakers to be reviewed in the magazine. Given that this is how it always happens in the popular press I can't see why that is a problem. No one can buy a speaker if they haven't heard of it, getting your speaker reviewed in a popular magazine is a good way to help. Most magazines rarely write negative reviews especially if the vendor has purchased enough advertising space with them.
I'm saying that I too am surprised to see this speaker reviewed in this publication, and that given the well documented issues with these speakers, and March Audio, that this seems like an effort by the manufacturer to save face. At least with the subjectivists who read What Hifi.
 

phoenixdogfan

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I'm saying that I too am surprised to see this speaker reviewed in this publication, and that given the well documented issues with these speakers, and March Audio, that this seems like an effort by the manufacturer to save face. At least with the subjectivists who read What Hifi.
The more I think about it, the more I believe the issues with the speaker have been resolved. To me it looks like one of the two or three best passive standmounts on the market. It would be good to get further feedback, but there really was nothing brought to light in that unfavorable review that was not readily correctable. I would think for the sake of his business that Alan would have had the good common sense to heed the wake up call.
 

poxymoron

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I would think for the sake of his business that Alan would have had the good common sense to heed the wake up call.

I would too, hence my feelings about this review article.
 

Holmz

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I didn’t mean “heard of” to be the same thing as “listened to”.


No… I actually heard them in person, and they sounded very good. Surprisingly good bass too.

Maybe I listened to them, but I was listening to the music and the speakers just disappeared.


I'm saying that I too am surprised to see this speaker reviewed in this publication, and that given the well documented issues with these speakers, and March Audio, that this seems like an effort by the manufacturer to save face. At least with the subjectivists who read What Hifi.

Well maybe there is some spread of QA as many owners seem to like them, and yet a few individuals have complaints.
Some of the well documented cases retracted their positions a bit, so it is unclear whether there is a problem with the speakers or the customer/March interactions, or something else.

I can only comment on the pair I heard, which seemed more like a sound stage… than a distinct pair of speakers.

And to say “subjectivists” is a bit on the nose, IMO.
Unless one is living under a rock, then it is literally the best objective measuring speaker that Erin and some others have measured (at least in that size/class.)
One can wax about subjective reviews all one chooses, but the objective reviews also exist… and they are screaming goodness.
The only thing that may not be good is the impulse response and step function response… or maybe those were not shown.

Granted I heard them first… subjectively, and then I awaited the objective review.
Why not use both approaches? They should correlate if we know science.
 

restorer-john

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Unless one is living under a rock, then it is literally the best objective measuring speaker that Erin and some others have measured (at least in that size/class.)

It's just one of many tens of thousands of speakers, both from the past and the present. Don't make it out to be anything more than that.
 

Doodski

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It's just one of many tens of thousands of speakers, both from the past and the present. Don't make it out to be anything more than that.
Well... Lol. Give it some credit where due. :D The optional exotic woodgrains is a fantastic selling feature that fills a niche for many people looking for something upscale. The use of those top of the line drivers is a selling point as well. Then add in it's diminutive size and voila.... WAF achieved. :D If I was still selling gear I would be happy with these as another arrow in my quiver. They would be setup outside the sound room under bright full spectrum lighting to show off the wood and I would have samples for selecting the various woods so the customers can dream all day long about them. They are for a certain special kind of customer. My past sales experience and results have proven that this sort of product agrees with me and makes lotsa money too. I don't even really try to sell this sort of product because it's not for everybody but I do take seriously every single person who wants to audition and experience them and that pays off in months when they come back after saving up money or negotiating with the spouse or whatever was required to purchase them. I think it's a fantastic product. Albeit apparently some growing pains but the errors where not catastrophic.
 
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