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Tekton M-Lore Speaker Review

Rate this speaker:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 282 59.0%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 174 36.4%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 15 3.1%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 7 1.5%

  • Total voters
    478

_thelaughingman

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Sheesh, this is turning into a bigger clown show than needed. Apparently Mr. Alexander isn't fazed by loss of reputation or revenue. He strikes me as one of those grimey business owner's that only cares about profit more so than doing the right thing. Must've been that playground bully in his childhood that thought making empty threats and bluster was getting him to be a big bad man.
 

PatentLawyer

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While armchair lawyering is fine in my view, I think we should avoid armchair psychoanalysis. Do some of the things Eric's doing seem inexplicable and maybe disordered to us? Sure. Is that enough to start diagnosing stuff even casually? I don't really think so.
I’m a real life lawyer who’s been in thousands of disputes for clients and examined / cross-examined hundreds of witnesses. I know bizarre behavior in this context when I see it. I’m not offering a diagnosis, just an opinion based on that experience. And I think I’m right.
 
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jbattman1016

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All I got out of all of this is that we should expect speakers maked in the USA under $400 to have a very colored sound and not be neutral. Idk. Maybe these speakers only work well in certain room shapes and seating positions.

Did you guys see the post over at AVS about the philharmonic BRM tower demo not being good due to the room used?

I prefer this doesn't go to court, because if it does and by some luck the Eric wins, then we have an issue for all product reviews. Imagine how screwed James Hoffman would be... Well I guess he's not in the US, but still. ✌️
 

doug s.

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If we were to do that. It could be inferred that we wanted to control the conversation and shut down all avenues of redress open to Mr. Alexander. Therefore we will leave this thread open to facilitate any and all responses including providing his actual test data that he claims will show how Amirm made mistakes and errors in his original review measurements. The Thread lives on as we all await for this Video and accompanying measurements that prove Mr. Alexander’s accusations.

Hopefully that explains why the thread must remain open and available for comment. Thank you for your understanding. ;)
"Therefore we will leave this thread open to facilitate any and all responses including providing his actual test data that he claims will show how Amirm made mistakes and errors in his original review measurements."
- don't hold your breath waiting for anything even remotely substantive.

doug s.
 

ctrl

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Regarding linear frequency response... anyone producing a perfect linear loudspeaker and the consumers shopping for perfectly linear loudspeaker isn't seeing the big picture
Absolutely right, 99% here in the forum will probably agree - only the on-axis measurement of a loudspeaker says almost nothing.
Otherwise there would have been no need for a CTA-2034-A standard and we would continue to measure only on-axis as we did 40 years ago.

A reasonably linear on-axis frequency response is not a sufficient condition for a good loudspeaker, but in most cases it is a necessary one.

I was manufacturing linear speakers 30 years ago - it's easy... anyone can do it. Flat frequency response is a naturally intuitive path for speaker designers and reviewers but it's it's not what a highly enlightened or well-informed acoustical physicist is going to ultimately end up with.
Yep, a speaker designer will take into account the entire radiation of a speaker (of course also aspects such as max SPL, distortion, compression,...).

This is where CTA-2034-A comes in handy for the consumer, as it makes it easier to judge the quality of a speaker design based on a few curves such as on-axis FR, LW, ER, SP, DI, ERDI and PIR, but also, for example, how well a speaker reacts to EQ.

There is no one perfect curve (on-axis FR, LW, ER, SP, DI, ERDI and PIR all matters). But for a good speaker design, all of these curves will be smooth, ideally without abrupt humps or dips.
The sound reflected from the room walls should match the sound of the direct sound - so e.g. look at the early reflections and ERDI.
The overall sound characteristic of a speaker in the listening room should be balanced; certain frequency ranges should not stand out - so e.g. have a look at sound power and SPDI... etc.

Even most amateur speaker designers have been proceeding in this manner for a decade or two. The CTA-2034-A standard facilitates such considerations and sensibly expands them with detailed considerations such as "side wall bounce" curve, predicted In-room response ... etc.

Let's now consider, for example, a speaker like the Tekton Moab or Encore Monitor from these perspectives, specifically focusing on the high-midrange units of these speakers:
1712656024918.png
Source: Tekton Moab

Unfortunately, the manufacturer does not provide complete measurements for these speakers, and the specifications do not include information on crossover frequencies and filter order, which is standard in the studio monitor domain.

There are some measurements of the Moab by Stereophile, but unfortunately, they were unable to conduct horizontal measurements >45°, and vertically, there were only measurements at +10°, -20°.
1712654837142.png 1712654849632.png
Source: Moab by Stereophile

However, these measurements already show that the "circular midrange array" leads to horizontal discontinuities. Vertically, this effect is even more pronounced, as the M-T-M arrangement corresponds to the distance ratios of a 12'' woofer with a 1'' tweeter.

Some dips or cancellations are not inherently problematic; they can be intentionally utilized in speaker designs. What matters is the overall concept - so have a look at that.

Since there are no complete measurements available for the Tekton Moab or Encore, we must, at this point, consider the fundamental concept of such speakers via simulation. For the basic examination of the concept "double circular midrange array" plus tweeter, a highly simplified simulation (only 2D cabinet/baffle) is sufficient (of course a professional speaker designer would naturally use much more complex 3D simulation tools).

Here is the simulation of a speaker (only the high-midrange units) similar to Moab or Encore (simulated listening distance is 3m):
1712655005934.png 1712655024138.png

From there, we can simulate complete horizontal and vertical +-180° frequency responses and create a crossover. In this example, a "constant power" filter (Butterworth third order) was used instead of the common "constant voltage" Linkwitz-Riley filter to achieve a slightly more uniform SP, ER, SPDI, and ERDI in the crossover range.

Now the question arise, has this simulation anything to do with the real speaker?

To be able to assess this, we look the same waterfall plots for the simulation as Stereophile did for the Moab - first on-axis normalized horizontal waterfall +-45°, then on-axis normalized vertical waterfall +-45°
1712656847006.png 1712656912863.png
The agreement with the Stereophile measurements is good, horizontally the consequence of the "circular array" beaming is less pronounced than with the real measurements.

So now we can analyze the full behavior of the simulated speaker with "circular tweeter midrange array" similar to Tekton Moab or Encore.

For the horizontal and vertical radiation we look at the normalized hor and ver sonograms (polar maps):
1712657749794.png 1712657767877.png
As expected, the 12'' "circular midrange array" narrows the radiation at high frequencies, at the transition to the 1'' tweeter, the radiation abruptly widens because of the wide tweeter radiation.

So the problem with the "circular midrange array" is not primarily inter-driver cancellation, but the very different radiation pattern of the array ("beaming" of the array), which can be compared to a 12'' or 15'' woofer, and the 1'' tweeter.

What does the CTA-2034-A diagram look like for the simulated high-midrange unit similar to a Moab or Encore when a reasonably linear on-axis frequency response is chosen?
1712660293565.png


In reality, one can mitigate the effects of the very different radiation patterns of midrange and high-frequency units through clever driver selection and crossover design***. However, the fundamental problem of the concept is likely to persist, as the few Stereophile measurements have already suggested.
So it's likely that direct sound and reflected sound is very different. It's likely that EQ won't work, because flat direct sound will cause unbalanced In-room (reflective) sound and vice versa.

But this is just a small example of how complete measurements and the CTA-2034-A standard are useful for analyzing a speaker design, and that no one in this forum actually values only the on-axis frequency response.

The potential sound of such a speaker concept was deliberately not discussed. If customers perceive such a concept as ideal sounding, that's great for the manufacturer - diversity is not a bad thing.

*** Update:
The horizontal and vertical radiation can be improved if the midrange-tweeter array is divided into two groups. For the tweeters in blue in the array, an early low-pass filter of first or second order is applied. The two tweeters closest to the tweeter, indicated in green, are filtered only at the crossover frequency to the tweeter. As a result, the horizontal and vertical radiation of the midrange array is less focused towards higher frequencies, and the transition to the wide radiation of the tweeter is improved.
1712705983879.png 1712706400652.png1712706482569.png1712706526126.png

I don't know if Moab or Encore divides the midrange array into groups of tweeters to control directivity. The Encore website hints at something like this. As mentioned before, the information on the website is very sparse.
If the crossover frequency to the tweeter is reduced (simulation uses 2.5kHz), the vertical radiation improves further.
 
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TonyJZX

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the problem is that someone like Eric is clear he knows it all and has nothing to learn.... is he out of touch or is it the kids?

and yes it could be have easily deflected... i'm willing to overlook a LOT given this is not a tier 1 type company like Harman and this is a decade old design...

surely he has better stuff now? maybe he should have said that?

he already is the darling of the andrew robinsons and guttenbergs of the world... maybe getting the charts he needs isnt in his competancies?
 

olieb

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I have the impression that this is a question of lèse majesté. The developer, with prizes and products for his court (the "audiophiles") behind him, considers himself royalty and simply cannot accept criticism of his creation.
Reason, science and such can of course play no part in this and are lightly dismissed. The unduly reviewer has to be fought by all means, however absurd these may be.
The only "solution" would probably be to acknowledge the superiority of the tailor of the "emperor's new clothes".

I think this guy gets WAY too much attention. He's long since dug himself far away in his hole.
 

voodooless

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In reality, one can mitigate the effects of the very different radiation patterns of midrange and high-frequency units through clever driver selection and crossover design. However, the fundamental problem of the concept is likely to persist, as the few Stereophile measurements have already suggested.
So it's likely that direct sound and reflected sound is very different. It's likely that EQ won't work, because flat direct sound will cause unbalanced In-room (reflective) sound and vice versa.
Sadly, the concept of a Bessel Array was already patented...
 

CleanSound

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I’m a real life lawyer who’s been in thousands of disputes for clients and examined / cross-examined hundreds of witnesses. I know bizarre behavior in this context when I see it. I’m not offering a diagnosis, just an opinion based on that experience. And I think I’m right.
There is something very bizarre about Eric Alexander's behavior.
 

CedarX

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Let's now consider, for example, a speaker like the Tekton Moab or Encore Monitor from these perspectives, specifically focusing on the high-midrange units of these speakers:
Is this fundamentally different from Erin’s or Amir’s reviews of “Teknot” (trying to not add more free advertising to the brand ;)) speakers?
What would prevent Mr. Alexander to sue you for misrepresenting their speakers design and damaging his brand?
 

Krusty09

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I'm not 100 percent sure about this but in these kind of cases if one were to lose the other maybe on the hook for the others lawyers fees. Something for Mr Eric to keep in mind as he goes down this road. I get hes butt hurt a little now but forget about if he were to lose in court as well. OUCH!
 

Mnyb

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Absolutely right, 99% here in the forum will probably agree - only the on-axis measurement of a loudspeaker says almost nothing.
Otherwise there would have been no need for a CTA-2034-A standard and we would continue to measure only on-axis as we did 40 years ago.

A reasonably linear on-axis frequency response is not a sufficient condition for a good loudspeaker, but in most cases it is a necessary one.


Yep, a speaker designer will take into account the entire radiation of a speaker (of course also aspects such as max SPL, distortion, compression,...).

This is where CTA-2034-A comes in handy for the consumer, as it makes it easier to judge the quality of a speaker design based on a few curves such as on-axis FR, LW, ER, SP, DI, ERDI and PIR, but also, for example, how well a speaker reacts to EQ.

There is no one perfect curve (on-axis FR, LW, ER, SP, DI, ERDI and PIR all matters). But for a good speaker design, all of these curves will be smooth, ideally without abrupt humps or dips.
The sound reflected from the room walls should match the sound of the direct sound - so e.g. look at the early reflections and ERDI.
The overall sound characteristic of a speaker in the listening room should be balanced; certain frequency ranges should not stand out - so e.g. have a look at sound power and SPDI... etc.

Even most amateur speaker designers have been proceeding in this manner for a decade or two. The CTA-2034-A standard facilitates such considerations and sensibly expands them with detailed considerations such as "side wall bounce" curve, predicted In-room response ... etc.

Let's now consider, for example, a speaker like the Tekton Moab or Encore Monitor from these perspectives, specifically focusing on the high-midrange units of these speakers:
View attachment 362430
Source: Tekton Moab

Unfortunately, the manufacturer does not provide complete measurements for these speakers, and the specifications do not include information on crossover frequencies and filter order, which is standard in the studio monitor domain.

There are some measurements of the Moab by Stereophile, but unfortunately, they were unable to conduct horizontal measurements >45°, and vertically, there were only measurements at +10°, -20°.
View attachment 362426 View attachment 362427
Source: Moab by Stereophile

However, these measurements already show that the "circular midrange array" leads to horizontal discontinuities. Vertically, this effect is even more pronounced, as the M-T-M arrangement corresponds to the distance ratios of a 12'' woofer with a 1'' tweeter.

Some dips or cancellations are not inherently problematic; they can be intentionally utilized in speaker designs. What matters is the overall concept - so have a look at that.

Since there are no complete measurements available for the Tekton Moab or Encore, we must, at this point, consider the fundamental concept of such speakers via simulation. For the basic examination of the concept "double circular midrange array" plus tweeter, a highly simplified simulation (only 2D cabinet/baffle) is sufficient (of course a professional speaker designer would naturally use much more complex 3D simulation tools).

Here is the simulation of a speaker (only the high-midrange units) similar to Moab or Encore (simulated listening distance is 3m):
View attachment 362428 View attachment 362429

From there, we can simulate complete horizontal and vertical +-180° frequency responses and create a crossover. In this example, a "constant power" filter (Butterworth third order) was used instead of the common "constant voltage" Linkwitz-Riley filter to achieve a slightly more uniform SP, ER, SPDI, and ERDI in the crossover range.

Now the question arise, has this simulation anything to do with the real speaker?

To be able to assess this, we look the same waterfall plots for the simulation as Stereophile did for the Moab - first on-axis normalized horizontal waterfall +-45°, then on-axis normalized vertical waterfall +-45°
View attachment 362431 View attachment 362432
The agreement with the Stereophile measurements is good, horizontally the consequence of the "circular array" beaming is less pronounced than with the real measurements.

So now we can analyze the full behavior of the simulated speaker with "circular tweeter midrange array" similar to Tekton Moab or Encore.

For the horizontal and vertical radiation we look at the normalized hor and ver sonograms (polar maps):
View attachment 362433 View attachment 362434
As expected, the 12'' "circular midrange array" narrows the radiation at high frequencies, at the transition to the 1'' tweeter, the radiation abruptly widens because of the wide tweeter radiation.

So the problem with the "circular midrange array" is not primarily inter-driver cancellation, but the very different radiation pattern of the array ("beaming" of the array), which can be compared to a 12'' or 15'' woofer, and the 1'' tweeter.

What does the CTA-2034-A diagram look like for the simulated high-midrange unit similar to a Moab or Encore when a reasonably linear on-axis frequency response is chosen?
View attachment 362442


In reality, one can mitigate the effects of the very different radiation patterns of midrange and high-frequency units through clever driver selection and crossover design. However, the fundamental problem of the concept is likely to persist, as the few Stereophile measurements have already suggested.
So it's likely that direct sound and reflected sound is very different. It's likely that EQ won't work, because flat direct sound will cause unbalanced In-room (reflective) sound and vice versa.

But this is just a small example of how complete measurements and the CTA-2034-A standard are useful for analyzing a speaker design, and that no one in this forum actually values only the on-axis frequency response.

The potential sound of such a speaker concept was deliberately not discussed. If customers perceive such a concept as ideal sounding, that's great for the manufacturer - diversity is not a bad thing.
Thankyou so the estimated inroom would show a suckout in the midrange ”boom tizz” sound ? :)
 

mlsstl

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The notion that the machine creating the vibrations in the air needs to be the same mass as the instrument recorded is (IMO) just yet another form of snake oil.
Interesting concept. Extending the "logic", wouldn't Eric need a separate driver for every instrument that could be reproduced? Lots of instruments between a triangle and a bass drum.
 
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ctrl

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What would prevent Mr. Alexander to sue you for misrepresenting their speakers design and damaging his brand?
Why should he do this? I simply simulated a speaker similar in concept to that of Moab or Encore, with a central tweeter and two circular arrays.

I pointed out the lack of information on crossover design in the manufacturer's specifications and explained which crossover design was chosen for the simulation.

If there are fundamental differences from the Tekton designs, I will gladly correct them. According to my information, the simulation is conceptually similar to the ones mentioned, and the simulations closely resemble the measurements by Stereophile overall.
 

ctrl

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Thankyou so the estimated inroom would show a suckout in the midrange ”boom tizz” sound ? :)
This is to be expected due to the severe beaming (significant narrowing of radiation towards higher frequencies) of the two circular tweeter arrays. The manufacturer himself compares these arrays with 12'' drivers.

As mentioned before, there is no information about the exact filter design. One could mitigate the effect by, for example, using shallow second-order filters (increasing the overlap range between midrange and tweeter) and a low crossover frequency (below 2 kHz). However, this would limit the tweeter's power handling capability.
 

DSJR

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...darling of the andrew robinsons and guttenbergs of the world... maybe getting the charts he needs isnt in his competancies?

Back in my now ancient days, the real influencers didn't just talk and opine about it, they DID and DELIVERED the work - and were happy and proud to have their work professionally tested by third parties...
 
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ctrl

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markus

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Interesting concept. Extending the "logic", wouldn't Eric need a separate driver for every instrument that could be reproduced? Lots of instruments between a triangle and a bass drum.
...or sounds coming out of a synthesizer :) Drivers are perfectly capable of being "fast" enough, or "light" enough. They have their flaws, sure. That's why there are tradeoffs in speaker design.
Furthermore stereo reproduction is NOT a soundfield recreation technique – not the soundfield a real sound source would create in one's listening space nor the soundfield of the recording venue. A speaker designer that holds the belief speakers needs to behave like real musical instruments hasn't thought very deeply about the topic. I'd start by reading Blumlein's original "stereo" patent from 1933 (!).
 
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