Tekton M-Lore Speaker Measurement Update

[Buckchester]

This all seems like a battle of words.

Amir is really just stirring up a movement of quite un realistic values in the bottom end on consumer home entertainment.

Aside from the less than cordial interactions with Amir and Eric what in the end is the point being made in these or an un solicited measurement? I am not convinced there is a real point to any off it.

On reflection it’s a good idea as a manufacturer to state the frequency response and the limits ie 50-20,000 hertz +- 5 db @ One meter for example. Any post purchase measurements only need to verify that under those conditions.

If the manufacturer leaves that open ended and the reviewer is also open ended in the approach to limit all this is nothing more than gas bagging. It’s on line waffle.

What is the reference at this price point?

The more intelligent approach rather than Amir made advoc personal statements is to quote the results in a form that make sense.

Ie the loudspeaker under test had a response +-3 db from 200 - 10,000 for example.

Then compare that response to similar loudspeaker in this price category.

At this price point this is a credible result.

If it was a $20,000 system you might expect a better result.

The subjective comments should not be made by Amir because he would be sight biased by the measurement or other biases. It should be a blind test not revealing the loudspeaker.

This of course would all be rather boring and there would be many posts. So a 60 Minutes style of provocative reporting to done to drive all you opinion leaders.


I do have one question for Amir

Where is the sense in spending $100,000 in a Klippel Scanner to measure a $1,000 loudspeaker? The answer is there isn’t unless you’re deeply invested in becoming an industry disrupter. The $100,000 is the attention grabber. But it’s really just a fancy machine with lots if automated functions. The primary application is testing drivers in R&D.

If Amir measured the drivers X max and BL curve it would give more real clues to how a system behaves under real operating conditions. A very much doubt Amir knows what a BL curve is.

On a broader perspective do those with the means look at forums when buying a +$10,000 loudspeaker system. They might look at consumer product reviews. The primary tool used to judge the loudspeaker will be their own ears. The notion that HiFi dealers don’t exist is rubbish.

Wut dafuq is dat? ^^^^*^*

 

[Buckchester]

On reflection it’s a good idea as a manufacturer to state the frequency response and the limits ie 50-20,000 hertz +- 5 db @ One meter for example. Any post purchase measurements only need to verify that under those conditions.

+ or - 5db eh? That's a difference of 10db. What do you think that's going to tell someone? Oh. Absolutely. Nothing.

 

[apoAudio]

Really unfortunate for Tekton, this could have been a huge win for them. IMHO I would have been lets do a live cast together and learn from this. Show customers they love feedback and can grow. The video Tekton made is the main reason I'll never look at their products again, they just made the issue worse with arrogance.

 

[tomtoo]

Really unfortunate for Tekton, this could have been a huge win for them. IMHO I would have been lets do a live cast together and learn from this. Show customers they love feedback and can grow. The video Tekton made is the main reason I'll never look at their products again, they just made the issue worse with arrogance.

The strange thing is.....there was never an issue. Both speakers did well. Not perfect but ok. From my point of view that behavior was toilet deep diving without any reason.

 

[meracus]

Wut dafuq is dat? ^^^^*^*

Look at his user name … he probably listens to 300b monoblocs with silver transformers and undied cotton sleeved point to point wiring ….. he also has a Schuman resonator and Shakti emi absorbers

 

[Everett T]

This all seems like a battle of words.

Amir is really just stirring up a movement of quite un realistic values in the bottom end on consumer home entertainment.

Aside from the less than cordial interactions with Amir and Eric what in the end is the point being made in these or an un solicited measurement? I am not convinced there is a real point to any off it.

On reflection it’s a good idea as a manufacturer to state the frequency response and the limits ie 50-20,000 hertz +- 5 db @ One meter for example. Any post purchase measurements only need to verify that under those conditions.

If the manufacturer leaves that open ended and the reviewer is also open ended in the approach to limit all this is nothing more than gas bagging. It’s on line waffle.

What is the reference at this price point?

The more intelligent approach rather than Amir made advoc personal statements is to quote the results in a form that make sense.

Ie the loudspeaker under test had a response +-3 db from 200 - 10,000 for example.

Then compare that response to similar loudspeaker in this price category.

At this price point this is a credible result.

If it was a $20,000 system you might expect a better result.

The subjective comments should not be made by Amir because he would be sight biased by the measurement or other biases. It should be a blind test not revealing the loudspeaker.

This of course would all be rather boring and there would be many posts. So a 60 Minutes style of provocative reporting to done to drive all you opinion leaders.


I do have one question for Amir

Where is the sense in spending $100,000 in a Klippel Scanner to measure a $1,000 loudspeaker? The answer is there isn’t unless you’re deeply invested in becoming an industry disrupter. The $100,000 is the attention grabber. But it’s really just a fancy machine with lots if automated functions. The primary application is testing drivers in R&D.

If Amir measured the drivers X max and BL curve it would give more real clues to how a system behaves under real operating conditions. A very much doubt Amir knows what a BL curve is.

On a broader perspective do those with the means look at forums when buying a +$10,000 loudspeaker system. They might look at consumer product reviews. The primary tool used to judge the loudspeaker will be their own ears. The notion that HiFi dealers don’t exist is rubbish.

Welcome and what? Even for a sock account that is one hilarious post. The extent of your Klippel knowledge was a Google search, and while you were there you should have looked up CEA and AES, maybe you'd have learned something about measurement standards, lol

 

[meracus]

Welcome and what? Even for a sock account that is one hilarious post. The extent of your Klippel knowledge was a Google search, and while you were there you should have looked up CEA and AES, maybe you'd have learned something about measurement standards, lol

I reckon he has Bybee purifiers and oyaide rhodium iec plugs … for their naturalness

 

[mj30250]

Really unfortunate for Tekton, this could have been a huge win for them. IMHO I would have been lets do a live cast together and learn from this. Show customers they love feedback and can grow. The video Tekton made is the main reason I'll never look at their products again, they just made the issue worse with arrogance.

It's a case study in precisely how not to respond to a less-than-favorable review of your product. Contrast with the Ascend Acoustics situation, whose owner and lead designer, when similarly frustrated after one of their speakers was objectively shown to possess a few issues, made a huge R&D investment in the form of a Klippel NFS. 2-3 years of development later, and they now produce some of the best passive loudspeakers on the planet.

On the other side, we have threats of legal action, ridiculously infantile statements, ill-conceived videos that are brought down within days, no effort whatsoever to provide evidence/data that would help to bolster their inane claims, and still nothing remotely resembling remorse or apology. It's an opportunity utterly squandered, and it's sad.

 

[thegeton]

 

[dzerig]

Yet privately to @amirm, it was made very clear that the intention was a lot more than just a friendly cup of coffee. The public statements were just made to try to take control of the narrative and downplay the situation. In fact, the man appears to have a history of threatening people with lawsuits.

Empty threats. A lawsuit would not be likely to be beneficial for him.

While your concluding statement is true, the situation is a bit different here. Erin and I can be considered part of "press" and hence, enjoy the precedence set by Supreme Court on freedoms we enjoy as a result of that. From the Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press_in_the_United_States

Any plaintiff suing in the USA would have to show the defendant acted negligently, regardless of whether or not the person is a member of the press.

"Obsidian Finance Group, LLC v. Cox
Main article: Obsidian Finance Group, LLC v. Cox
On 2014, blogger Crystal Cox accused Obsidian and Kevin D. Padrick of corrupt and fraudulent conduct. Although the court dismissed most of Cox's blog posts as opinion, it found one post to be more factual in its assertions (and, therefore, defamatory).

It was ruled for the first time,[26][27] by the Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit,[28] that a blogger is entitled to the same free speech protection as a journalist and cannot be liable for defamation unless the blogger acted negligently.[29] In the decision, journalists and bloggers are equally protected under the First Amendment[26] because the "protections of the First Amendment do not turn on whether the defendant was a trained journalist, formally affiliated with traditional news entities, engaged in conflict-of-interest disclosure, went beyond just assembling others' writings, or tried to get both sides of a story."[28]: 11–12 [30]"

The discussion about whether or not this blogger qualified as media relates to two points. First, damages. The defendant asserts as a member of the media the plantiff is limited to 'actual' damages. Second, protecting the source's anonymity. The court ruled that the blogger can properly rely on Oregon's shield law to refuse to identify a source.
Negligence is the standard regardless of whether or not the defendant is a member of the media.

If you are dealing with a public figure, then the standard is reckless disregard for the truth, which is the standard a defendant wants.

Combine this with the Consumer Review Fairness Act and I think one can rely on the courts starting with the default position that reviewers have good bit of freedom when it comes to reviewing products.

You would not be liable for defaming the speakers. You would be liable for putting the product in a false light.

The CRFA appears to prohibit the enforcement of contract provisions between a customer and a seller of a product or manufacturer of a product penalizing negative reviews. It does not appear to deal with a situation where there is no contract.

To quote wikipedia:

The Consumer Review Fairness Act of 2016, signed into law by President Barack Obama on December 14, 2016, is a federal consumer protection statute banning the use of gag clauses in non-negotiable consumer form contracts.

 

[CapMan]

Time for a different Eric ..

 

[voodooless]

Empty threats. A lawsuit would not be likely to be beneficial for him.

Sure, but so what?

 

[ahofer]

Empty threats. A lawsuit would not be likely to be beneficial for him.

But detrimental to all concerned except the lawyers, unfortunately.

 

[PatentLawyer]

But detrimental to all concerned except the lawyers, unfortunately.

Let's not be hasty.

 

[ahofer]

Let's not be hasty.

LOL.

My wife is a violist, so I hear more violist jokes than lawyer jokes, believe it or not. But many of them are the same joke ('good start", etc.)

As a finance professional, though, everyone hates me so much they can't even find their sense of humour.

 

[pseudoid]

Freedom of Speech, which in America is derived from the Constitution's First Amendment, relates to the government and its limitation in restricting people's speech. I.e. Freedom of speech does not apply to individuals as it relates to their speech and third parties/private institutions. E.g. this forum is free to restrict people's speech. Twitter and FB were and are free to restrict people's speech.

+1 - Thank you for bringing this up.
OT: At my age, I should have learned this subtle (but a very important nuance of the) 1st Amendment' restriction wayyyy back, in my High School Civil studies. I am still in the process of wrapping my head around it, since the start of the recent campus protests.

 

[bmwr75]

I thought they had ready to ship items in stock?

They didn't 3-4 years ago when my order was placed.

 

[amirm]

The CRFA appears to prohibit the enforcement of contract provisions between a customer and a seller of a product or manufacturer of a product penalizing negative reviews.

It is and a point I made to Eric when I quoted that law. However, I would imagine this sets the atmosphere under which such cases are looked at. My review is different than other kind of journalism.

 

[Steve H]

It is and a point I made to Eric when I quoted that law. However, I would imagine this sets the atmosphere under which such cases are looked at. My review is different than other kind of journalism.

You do journalistic review “The aim is to offer an honest critique of the object under review, and to make a recommendation to your audience.”​

 

[antcollinet]

+1 - Thank you for bringing this up.
OT: At my age, I should have learned this subtle (but a very important nuance of the) 1st Amendment' restriction wayyyy back, in my High School Civil studies. I am still in the process of wrapping my head around it, since the start of the recent campus protests.

XKCD has something for all circumstances. A bit USA centric, but applies to the legal basis to FOS around the world...