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Tekton M-Lore Speaker Measurement Update

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amirm

amirm

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If Amir measured the drivers X max and BL curve it would give more real clues to how a system behaves under real operating conditions. A very much doubt Amir knows what a BL curve is.
I do. Where do you get your knowledge and logic from, fortune cookies?

I have indeed considered buying the drive test workbench from Klippel. It costs $25K. That is not the main reason I have not bought it though. Its laser testing is destructive (you have to put chalk on the driver) and you have to build a custom baffle for each driver. I may still do that but I have so much to test right now that I don't want to get into another domain. But the curiosity is there to not only measure BL curve, but fully characterize the 3-D displacement of the driver to find out its sources of distortion.
 

ahofer

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This all seems like a battle of words.

Amir is really just stirring up a movement of quite un realistic values in the bottom end on consumer home entertainment.

Aside from the less than cordial interactions with Amir and Eric what in the end is the point being made in these or an un solicited measurement? I am not convinced there is a real point to any off it.

On reflection it’s a good idea as a manufacturer to state the frequency response and the limits ie 50-20,000 hertz +- 5 db @ One meter for example. Any post purchase measurements only need to verify that under those conditions.

If the manufacturer leaves that open ended and the reviewer is also open ended in the approach to limit all this is nothing more than gas bagging. It’s on line waffle.

What is the reference at this price point?

The more intelligent approach rather than Amir made advoc personal statements is to quote the results in a form that make sense.

Ie the loudspeaker under test had a response +-3 db from 200 - 10,000 for example.

Then compare that response to similar loudspeaker in this price category.

At this price point this is a credible result.

If it was a $20,000 system you might expect a better result.

The subjective comments should not be made by Amir because he would be sight biased by the measurement or other biases. It should be a blind test not revealing the loudspeaker.

This of course would all be rather boring and there would be many posts. So a 60 Minutes style of provocative reporting to done to drive all you opinion leaders.


I do have one question for Amir

Where is the sense in spending $100,000 in a Klippel Scanner to measure a $1,000 loudspeaker? The answer is there isn’t unless you’re deeply invested in becoming an industry disrupter. The $100,000 is the attention grabber. But it’s really just a fancy machine with lots if automated functions. The primary application is testing drivers in R&D.

If Amir measured the drivers X max and BL curve it would give more real clues to how a system behaves under real operating conditions. A very much doubt Amir knows what a BL curve is.

On a broader perspective do those with the means look at forums when buying a +$10,000 loudspeaker system. They might look at consumer product reviews. The primary tool used to judge the loudspeaker will be their own ears. The notion that HiFi dealers don’t exist is rubbish.
This post seems to have its own internal battle of words. It makes little sense to me, but a few questions/observations jump out:
-There are lots of members here with high-priced loudspeakers and many of us looked at the forums before making purchases
-A klippel is the best way I know of to measure a loudspeaker, regardless of (and completely unconnected to) loudspeaker price
-What are you intending when you say "reference"?
-I'm very skeptical of your "BL Curve" puffery, but I'll leave it to one of the forum experts.
-who cares if a measurement is "unsolicited" or not?
-What on earth is your point?
 
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amirm

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Amir is really just stirring up a movement of quite un realistic values in the bottom end on consumer home entertainment.
Nonsense. I got a demand from Eric Alexander of Tekton to re-measure the step response:

"Amir,

The image I forwarded to you is provided by Eminence and it's the SPL/frequency response of the 8 driver in the M-Lore.

Thanks for correcting your mistakes. With the corrected listening-axis the step response needs to be published correctly. Please correct the step response to the point of exactly 6.5" above the tweeter so your work reflects the speaker is 'mechanically time-aligned.

Sincerely,
Eric Alexander
President
Tekton Design, LLC"


When the owner approached me saying he can buy back the speaker from the new owner, I said let's see if we can borrow it to do the re-testing. I could have let this go but I wanted to settle the dispute with data and that is what this thread is about. It costs me fair amount of resources but I thought I do what Eric would not do (send me his measurements to post as I promised him).

If you mean the original thread was nothing, then you have no idea what you are talking about. Getting the original message from Eric made me take notice as it was very strongly worded and sounded like an attorney was standing by to sue me.
 
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amirm

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What is the reference at this price point?
That is for you all to determine. My job is to test equipment that members send me so you have the information to make that kind of comparison. I use the same protocol for all products as to provide fair and comparable data. I have tested speakers down to tens of dollars. What business of yours is it to question why I and membership want to see information which manufacturers remotely don't provide?
 
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amirm

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If it was a $20,000 system you might expect a better result.
Not at all. Getting proper directivity for example requires a waveguide which can be had in this price range. It is a piece of plastic after all. Sources of resonances could have been found and fixed for not much money. You sound like this is $20 speaker.
 

NTK

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...
If Amir measured the drivers X max and BL curve it would give more real clues to how a system behaves under real operating conditions. A very much doubt Amir knows what a BL curve is.
...
Can you provide some references to published studies that correlate listener preference to Bl factor and Xmax of speaker drivers when they are implemented into speaker systems?
 

BDWoody

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The more intelligent approach rather than Amir made advoc personal statements is to quote the results in a form that make sense.

What a strange few posts you've made.

I think you need to fill in some blanks a little better before trying again. You are coming across as a bit rude.

Or, since you've got the details on what Amir should do, there's a great opportunity for you to set up your own site and show the world how it's done.
 
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On reflection it’s a good idea as a manufacturer to state the frequency response and the limits ie 50-20,000 hertz +- 5 db @ One meter for example. Any post purchase measurements only need to verify that under those conditions.
Hey Eric, just show us your measurements.
 

kemmler3D

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This all seems like a battle of words.

Amir is really just stirring up a movement of quite un realistic values in the bottom end on consumer home entertainment.

Aside from the less than cordial interactions with Amir and Eric what in the end is the point being made in these or an un solicited measurement? I am not convinced there is a real point to any off it.

On reflection it’s a good idea as a manufacturer to state the frequency response and the limits ie 50-20,000 hertz +- 5 db @ One meter for example. Any post purchase measurements only need to verify that under those conditions.

If the manufacturer leaves that open ended and the reviewer is also open ended in the approach to limit all this is nothing more than gas bagging. It’s on line waffle.

What is the reference at this price point?

The more intelligent approach rather than Amir made advoc personal statements is to quote the results in a form that make sense.

Ie the loudspeaker under test had a response +-3 db from 200 - 10,000 for example.

Then compare that response to similar loudspeaker in this price category.

At this price point this is a credible result.

If it was a $20,000 system you might expect a better result.

The subjective comments should not be made by Amir because he would be sight biased by the measurement or other biases. It should be a blind test not revealing the loudspeaker.

This of course would all be rather boring and there would be many posts. So a 60 Minutes style of provocative reporting to done to drive all you opinion leaders.


I do have one question for Amir

Where is the sense in spending $100,000 in a Klippel Scanner to measure a $1,000 loudspeaker? The answer is there isn’t unless you’re deeply invested in becoming an industry disrupter. The $100,000 is the attention grabber. But it’s really just a fancy machine with lots if automated functions. The primary application is testing drivers in R&D.

If Amir measured the drivers X max and BL curve it would give more real clues to how a system behaves under real operating conditions. A very much doubt Amir knows what a BL curve is.

On a broader perspective do those with the means look at forums when buying a +$10,000 loudspeaker system. They might look at consumer product reviews. The primary tool used to judge the loudspeaker will be their own ears. The notion that HiFi dealers don’t exist is rubbish.
What I'm getting from this post is you don't understand measurements... and you take that a step further, because you don't understand what they're for, Amir shouldn't publish them. And apparently nobody should publish opinions about speakers whether they do measurements or not?

Huh?
 

Jim Taylor

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This all seems like a battle of words.

Amir is really just stirring up a movement of quite un realistic values in the bottom end on consumer home entertainment.

Aside from the less than cordial interactions with Amir and Eric what in the end is the point being made in these or an un solicited measurement? I am not convinced there is a real point to any off it.

On reflection it’s a good idea as a manufacturer to state the frequency response and the limits ie 50-20,000 hertz +- 5 db @ One meter for example. Any post purchase measurements only need to verify that under those conditions.

If the manufacturer leaves that open ended and the reviewer is also open ended in the approach to limit all this is nothing more than gas bagging. It’s on line waffle.

What is the reference at this price point?

The more intelligent approach rather than Amir made advoc personal statements is to quote the results in a form that make sense.

Ie the loudspeaker under test had a response +-3 db from 200 - 10,000 for example.

Then compare that response to similar loudspeaker in this price category.

At this price point this is a credible result.

If it was a $20,000 system you might expect a better result.

The subjective comments should not be made by Amir because he would be sight biased by the measurement or other biases. It should be a blind test not revealing the loudspeaker.

This of course would all be rather boring and there would be many posts. So a 60 Minutes style of provocative reporting to done to drive all you opinion leaders.


I do have one question for Amir

Where is the sense in spending $100,000 in a Klippel Scanner to measure a $1,000 loudspeaker? The answer is there isn’t unless you’re deeply invested in becoming an industry disrupter. The $100,000 is the attention grabber. But it’s really just a fancy machine with lots if automated functions. The primary application is testing drivers in R&D.

If Amir measured the drivers X max and BL curve it would give more real clues to how a system behaves under real operating conditions. A very much doubt Amir knows what a BL curve is.

On a broader perspective do those with the means look at forums when buying a +$10,000 loudspeaker system. They might look at consumer product reviews. The primary tool used to judge the loudspeaker will be their own ears. The notion that HiFi dealers don’t exist is rubbish.

There's an old saying; "It's better to think without talking than to talk without thinking." :)

Jim
 

Timcognito

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Where is the sense in spending $100,000 in a Klippel Scanner to measure a $1,000 loudspeaker? The answer is there isn’t unless you’re deeply invested in becoming an industry disrupter. The $100,000 is the attention grabber. But it’s really just a fancy machine with lots if automated functions. The primary application is testing drivers in R&D.
And if the $1k tests as good as the $100k model its a bargain and everyone thanks unpaid Amir for investing $100k and saving us from a $99k mistake. And what GS Jester and Jim T said.
 

bodhi

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$100k device that brings the efficiency that Klippel system provides, an "attention grabber"? If one is trying to run any kind of even half-serious business that kind of money is peanuts. And a for business that involves manufacturing physical products, a no-brainer. That comment was 100% talking without thinking, at all.
 

Tassin

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Where is the sense in spending $100,000 in a Klippel Scanner to measure a $1,000 loudspeaker?
So far, Amir tested 293 speakers representing a total worth of $ 259,590.47. Seems like the investment was well worth it.
 

Timcognito

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Seems like the investment was well worth it.
Especially since we paid zero. Thanks Amir. Hope you are not in the doghouse for a Klippel instead of a kitchen remodel. :cool:
 

Vraxoin

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It's a bit astounding someone is trying to question the value of factual information and then, additionally, is applying some sort of monetary sliding scale, where facts about something which costs $1000 are somehow lesser than for something which costs $20,000.
 
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kemmler3D

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If one is trying to run any kind of even half-serious business that kind of money is peanuts.
IME you might be overestimating how "serious" most speaker brands are...

I think every manufacturer *should* have one, but you can get by without good anechoic measurements, especially if you're making small bluetooth speakers or something.

It wouldn't hurt to have one in that category, but for the most part, you have very hard design constraints that a klippel might not help you with. And, in the end, most of your customers are shopping more on price than sound anyway. Better off hiring a cost engineer and sourcing manager for the money than buying a klippel, in that case...
 

tmtomh

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This all seems like a battle of words.
Yes, it would have been much more meaningful if they had engaged in a battle of interpretive dance.

Amir is really just stirring up a movement of quite un realistic values in the bottom end on consumer home entertainment.
Plenty of affordable gear meets the performance expectations that you claim are unrealistic. And in some product categories, the tests and reviews published here have played a role in spurring manufacturers to increase performance. So not only are the performance expectations realistic, but ASR has in some cases helped make that performance a reality in lower-priced gear. Therefore, your claim is demonstrably false.

Aside from the less than cordial interactions with Amir and Eric what in the end is the point being made in these or an un solicited measurement? I am not convinced there is a real point to any off it.
The point being made with the measurements of the M-Lore is that the M-Lore performs in certain ways, and that information is useful for prospective buyers of the product, and for those generally interested in learning more about the performance of speakers. It doesn't matter whether the review is solicited or not.

On reflection it’s a good idea as a manufacturer to state the frequency response and the limits ie 50-20,000 hertz +- 5 db @ One meter for example. Any post purchase measurements only need to verify that under those conditions.
Measurements "only need to verify that" if the manufacturer's stated specifications are sufficient in their scope and precision to give us a full picture of the speaker's performance. The example you have given does not come close to meeting that standard. Plus or minus 5dB isn't linear enough; we don't know how quickly or slowly it drops off below 50Hz; we don't know what the distortion levels are at various SPLs; we don't know if the response contains broad, low-Q peaks that will be very noticeable; we don't know what the off-axis response looks like; we don't know the impedance load it presents to an amplifier; and so on. So your claim here is very easy to demonstrate as false, "upon reflection" - and it doesn't take much reflection.

If the manufacturer leaves that open ended and the reviewer is also open ended in the approach to limit all this is nothing more than gas bagging. It’s on line waffle.
True. Fortunately the reviews here are not open-ended.

What is the reference at this price point?
The idea that each price point has an unchangeable reference performance makes no sense. The idea that similarly priced speakers can and should be compared to each other makes a lot of sense. Amir does some of that in his reviews (for example he noted in the M-Lore review that "the competition does not need to be worried"), and there is both a speaker preference score and a review/measurement database associated with this site, as well as Klippel measurement comparison tool easily available online and linked in many review threads here.

The more intelligent approach rather than Amir made advoc personal statements is to quote the results in a form that make sense.

Ie the loudspeaker under test had a response +-3 db from 200 - 10,000 for example. [...]

At this price point this is a credible result.
No one said this is not a "credible" result - although you seem to think that 200Hz and 10kHz cutoffs for +/-3dB on-axis response represents higher-quality performance than it actually does, and that it tells us more about how the speaker will sound than it actually does. For example, there are plenty of very inexpensive speakers - less expensive than the M-Lore - whose bass F3 extends far below 200Hz, well below 100Hz, and often to 50-60Hz.

The speaker's response is there for everyone to see in the measurement graphs. And by the way, it's +/-4dB from 200Hz to 10kHz, not 3dB, and on-axis linearity isn't the only important measurement. Given that your "form of quoting the results" is both inaccurate and wildly insufficient, @amirm 's approach is far more intelligent than your own, and he has "quoted the results" in a form that makes a lot more sense than your quoting of the results has.

If it was a $20,000 system you might expect a better result.
One would indeed expect a better result from a $20k system (although some very expensive systems have very uneven response). But other speakers costing the same as the M-Lore also produce better results. So it would be untruthful and irrational to pretend otherwise.

The subjective comments should not be made by Amir because he would be sight biased by the measurement or other biases. It should be a blind test not revealing the loudspeaker.
He's reviewed dozens of speakers, maybe more than 100 at this point. Which ones is he supposed to blind test compared to each other? How would such listening tests enable him - or anyone else - to compare a speaker he reviewed in 2021 with one he reviews now?

This of course would all be rather boring and there would be many posts. So a 60 Minutes style of provocative reporting to done to drive all you opinion leaders.
60 Minutes is a very poor example of "provocative reporting." Putting that aside, we could easily come up with a checklist of items to test for a sensationalistic or "clickbait" story, and Amir's reviews would fail that test miserably.

I do have one question for Amir

Where is the sense in spending $100,000 in a Klippel Scanner to measure a $1,000 loudspeaker? The answer is there isn’t unless you’re deeply invested in becoming an industry disrupter. The $100,000 is the attention grabber. But it’s really just a fancy machine with lots if automated functions. The primary application is testing drivers in R&D.
Putting aside the super-weak attempt at an ad hominem attack, the logic of this "question" is that only the most expensive speakers should be tested properly and accurately. By that logic, Amir should refuse to provide proper, comprehensive measurement data on speakers costing less than - what? - $30k? $10k? - because lower-priced speakers are for "consumers" and no one would have any interest in real measurements of them. But once again, it is demonstrably provable that people who care about measurements buy speakers that cost $1000 or less. So your claim is demonstrably false.

If Amir measured the drivers X max and BL curve it would give more real clues to how a system behaves under real operating conditions. A very much doubt Amir knows what a BL curve is.
It turns out he does know what it is - and he knows enough about it to explain to you and everyone else why it's infeasible for many of the speakers that he receives, and why it's not at the top of his priority list to add that. So once again, your claim has been proven to be incorrect.

On a broader perspective do those with the means look at forums when buying a +$10,000 loudspeaker system. They might look at consumer product reviews. The primary tool used to judge the loudspeaker will be their own ears. The notion that HiFi dealers don’t exist is rubbish.
The traffic to this site; the comments in the "what have you bought because of ASR testing" thread and the "what have you opted not to buy because of ASR testing" thread; and the fact that you will not be able to find anyone here saying that hi-fi dealers don't exist, all demonstrate that your claims here are false.
 
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ahofer

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I'm amazed you all seemed to understand that jumble of phrases.
 
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