Stereophile's snide editorial on ASR and Amir

[Vacceo]

More expensive gear is typically better. So if you're clueless when reviewing equipment, then McIntosh is a safe bet. Everyone agrees that it sounds good with badly and well-recorded music. Recommending McIntosh is easy. Too bad the prices are too darn high!

Pass Labs is very expensive crap that gurus love to recommend.

Any Denon AVR smashes it for a massive fraction of the price.

McIntosh amps are not bad at all, indeed, but for similar prices, Apollon gets you 12 channels of amplification with better performance. Surprise, your rule does not follow way too often.

 

[captainbeefheart]

Pass Labs is very expensive crap that gurus love to recommend.

How many Pass amps have you heard?

Are you judging them by their specs only?

Some of Nelson Pass' amps have high distortion but some are also very clean, he has quite the collection of different topologies out there so there is an amp for everyone since some people actually prefer a little harmonic distortion. Many companies just stick with one type of topology for their brand (say complimentary AB emitter/source follower output stages) and nothing else, I think Nelson understands that for how many people there are that are different he makes amplifiers for them which is why if you look at the specs for his amps they are all over the place in regard to distortion, output impedance, power, class of operation etc..........

 

[GXAlan]

Gramophone Dreams #26: Nelson Pass & Harmonic Distortion

Every time I fly to California, my brain gets stuck on the lyrics of that Arlo Guthrie song: "Coming into Los Angeles / bringing in a couple of keys . . ." Even landing in San Francisco, I'm always smiling, because I've never been busted in California.

www.stereophile.com

Pass reminded everyone that "The H2 works best with simple material. With complex material, second harmonic may be more of a burden than an asset. When you turn the knob to the left, which is negative-phase second harmonic, the room gets bigger, more atmospheric, you start to see images of musicians. Turn the knob right, you get positive-phase second harmonic, which brings the musicians closer to you: drier but more intimate, more apparent detail. But of course," Pass reminded us, grinning hugely," this is all illusion!"

 

[Vacceo]

How many Pass amps have you heard?

Are you judging them by their specs only?

Some of Nelson Pass' amps have high distortion but some are also very clean, he has quite the collection of different topologies out there so there is an amp for everyone since some people actually prefer a little harmonic distortion. Many companies just stick with one type of topology for their brand (say complimentary AB emitter/source follower output stages) and nothing else, I think Nelson understands that for how many people there are that are different he makes amplifiers for them which is why if you look at the specs for his amps they are all over the place in regard to distortion, output impedance, power, class of operation etc..........

Two, both of them with kef speakers.

The distortion on both made them sound atrocious. Benediction and Bolt Thrower sounded like different bands. I love distortion, truly love it; but on the source, not on the gear.

I'm the clear example that I like neutral systems. If I want weird effects, I can always use EQ.

 

[captainbeefheart]

Two, both of them with kef speakers.

The distortion on both made them sound atrocious. Benediction and Bolt Thrower sounded like different bands. I love distortion, truly love it; but on the source, not on the gear.

I'm the clear example that I like neutral systems. If I want weird effects, I can always use EQ.

Yes some of his products have high distortion and some even have very high output impedance which tracks speaker impedance and can sound bloated with certain speakers. They aren't for everyone or every speaker that's for certain. Some of them are more typical push pull with feedback arrangements that behave like you would expect from a modern hifi amplifier but I think Nelson wanted to set himself apart from the pack and have fun with amps which some people love. Especially people that listen to very simple music styles where some harmonic distortion is an added part of the magic to them. He doesn't kid himself that this is how amps should be, it's just an effect some people prefer and he has fun accommodating this niche.

I'm not trying to sell you or anyone on his amps, I don't own any myself but have built similar style amps for fun myself and it just is what it is, a fun hobby. I do think there would be an amp you could like from him but unfortunately you haven't heard those types. I am also thinking of his First Watt amps and not just Pass Labs.

 

[Vacceo]

Yes some of his products have high distortion and some even have very high output impedance which tracks speaker impedance and can sound bloated with certain speakers. They aren't for everyone or every speaker that's for certain. Some of them are more typical push pull with feedback arrangements that behave like you would expect from a modern hifi amplifier but I think Nelson wanted to set himself apart from the pack and have fun with amps which some people love. Especially people that listen to very simple music styles where some harmonic distortion is an added part of the magic to them. He doesn't kid himself that this is how amps should be, it's just an effect some people prefer and he has fun accommodating this niche.

I'm not trying to sell you or anyone on his amps, I don't own any myself but have built similar style amps for fun myself and it just is what it is, a fun hobby. I do think there would be an amp you could like from him but unfortunately you haven't heard those types.

If the point is getting a clean amp, I think I have better options on current Hypex and Purifi based manufacturers.

If an amp works with "just some sources", it is a piece of shit.

 

[tmtomh]

Mostly true, except the cynical part. The ‘unsupported belief’ is not unsupported at all; a lot of people that rely on their own ears. They have to, not everyone has a Toole recommended carousel of speakers, behind cloths, to select their favourite speaker blind.

No one dears to speak himself out anymore. My ‘doctrine’ is: measuring is key, and then you listen. And write about it. I think it is interesting to know that an RME ADI-2 fs sounds different than a Topping D90se. And when 99 people write that they sound the same and 1 (me) that they sound different it is interesting information too.

Thanks for your reply. Two points that I think are central to our exchange:

1. "Except for the cynical part." My calling your belief in the idea that your individual listening experience is evidence in the same way that (or more so than) measurements are evidence "unsupported" is not cynical. It's just a claim I am making, and you are disagreeing. I would only note that you, once gain, provide no evidence or even reasoning for your claim. You merely state that "a lot of people rely on their own ears." Yes, they do - and I rely on my ears too. But I don't rely on my ears to assert objective sonic truths to others. That's the difference.

2. "It is interesting to know that an RME ADI-2 sounds different than a Topping D90se." This follows directly from the first point. You might "know" that they sound different, but I don't - and your knowledge is not knowledge that others can or should simply take you at your word on. It is not a consistently repeatable finding like a measurement, and so it is not the same kind of knowledge. By asserting it as a fact - which, let's be honest, is exactly what you are doing - you imply that it is indeed the same kind of knowledge as a measurement. That's just not the case.

 

[kokakolia]

Pass Labs is very expensive crap that gurus love to recommend.

Any Denon AVR smashes it for a massive fraction of the price.

Okay, name one.

 

[egellings]

You can't do a blind test while setting up a projector, so just plug you ears instead, I 'spoze.

 

[h-hawk]

Only in certain categories. When they test an AC cable and talk about it improving this and that, clearly that is a mistake.

It's statements like this that make it hard to take any of your conclusions seriously. This is dogma pure and simple. Hundreds of thousands of music fans hear differences due to how cables react to specific components but you do not. Several highly regarded cable companies even explain how their cables effect the sound - Analysis Plus, Audience and Shunyata come to mind. I suspect their engineers have a much better background to discuss these effects than you.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

This is dogma pure and simple.

You are correct. It IS dogma. "Dogma" is defined as an accepted belief or opinion. Under no circumstances is dogma associated with truth, the search for truth, or reality. The modern use and connotation is, in fact, just the opposite: Wikipedia (which I do not always trust) says the term is .... " applied to some strong belief which its adherents are not willing to discuss rationally. "

Also: it is possible to change the performance of a wire or cable by introducing (building in) characteristics NOT conducive to neutrality and accuracy. That's quackery, pure and simple.

Jim

 

[h-hawk]

Even Andrew Robinson has started to have 'frequency response' graphs of speakers in his YouTube reviews. They're kinda bogus, but at least it shows he's seeing the pressure to include some real tech.

He probably just saw how easy it is for Amir to fool most of you with graphs and wanted to jump on board.

 

[Vacceo]

Okay, name one.

XA60.8

Disgusting, turbo expensive and incapable. I had no idea what a Pass Labs is when I listened to it. My old Denon 2808 at least provided clean watts on more channels.

 

[bkatbamna]

Character "flaws" lol, no it's called enjoying life. Last night I was relistening to the adagio from Beethoven's op. 59/2 on my ESL57 and it was among the very best 15 minutes I'd experienced that week, nearly moved to tears. Of course thank Beethoven for that, but it was in no small part due to the most realistic sounding speakers I've heard for acoustic instruments. I removed my LSR 306 MK2 from my office with the intent to try the mono speaker experiment (haven't got around to it yet), so the next day I decided to play that string quartet again on the LSR 306 in stereo. Perfectly fine listening experience though with quite a few flaws (still the very greatest bargain in all of audio for what I paid), but overall a rather flat experience that had me pulling out my phone wondering what was going on with TSLA earnings, news, etc.

As for being threatened by ASR, what percent of people that are subjectivists actually become objectivists? If I put a number on it 5% might be generous. I've been on several hifi boards where they eventually create a science/measurements subforum and there is virtually no intermixing between the groups of people that post on that and the main forums.

I'd say the bigger reason I have seen people on the other side getting upset is the level of arrogance and not uncommonly flat out contempt people here have for others that aren't like them (I am not saying this is a one way street). Saying someone has "character flaws" might sound like a benign comment but it truly isn't.

And lest I be marked as some hardcore numpty subjectivist, my posts on ASR are nearly all about my primary interest in speakers, directivity, even bass response in room, etc. And I've read Toole's second edition cover to cover before this forum ever existed. I mostly realize that in life something is almost never a 1 or 0, and there is far more nuance to things than that.

It is the human character flaws that make "scientists" make up results because they want a certain result. I was talking about that, not anyone in the audio forums or stereophile. There have been countless scientific studies that have been published in peer review medical and scientific journals that have had to be recalled and withdrawn because of this problem. So even science says that you shouldn't "trust the science".

 

[Triliza]

It's statements like this that make it hard to take any of your conclusions seriously. This is dogma pure and simple. Hundreds of thousands of music fans hear differences due to how cables react to specific components but you do not. Several highly regarded cable companies even explain how their cables effect the sound - Analysis Plus, Audience and Shunyata come to mind. I suspect their engineers have a much better background to discuss these effects than you.

Welcome to ASR. Instead of being too sure of your own knowledge, hang around a little bit, do some reading, you'll learn a thing or two. Even if you don't trust Amir and his technical background, there are other experts around that may be of help to you.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

He probably just saw how easy it is for Amir to fool most of you with graphs and wanted to jump on board.

Yeah, that's a big problem here with so many of us, including me, being very gullible. It's something I need to work on.

 

[Vacceo]

He probably just saw how easy it is for Amir to fool most of you with graphs and wanted to jump on board.

Everyone is a fool except me, of course, I know the Truth(tm).

 

[Mr. E. Guy]

It's statements like this that make it hard to take any of your conclusions seriously. This is dogma pure and simple. Hundreds of thousands of music fans hear differences due to how cables react to specific components but you do not. Several highly regarded cable companies even explain how their cables effect the sound - Analysis Plus, Audience and Shunyata come to mind. I suspect their engineers have a much better background to discuss these effects than you.

It really does not matter how many people suffer the same mass delusion, it is exactly that. You can find a million people who agree with you and you can still be wrong.

Highly regarded cable companies? Highly regarded by who? Their advertising agency that creates the entire fictional universe that they exist within? By the cult members who would rather swallow all the Kool-aid in the world than accept the fact that they've been duped over something as dumb as a power cable?

That's fine, you go on with your power cable religion.

 

[Ken1951]

It's statements like this that make it hard to take any of your conclusions seriously. This is dogma pure and simple. Hundreds of thousands of music fans hear differences due to how cables react to specific components but you do not. Several highly regarded cable companies even explain how their cables effect the sound - Analysis Plus, Audience and Shunyata come to mind. I suspect their engineers have a much better background to discuss these effects than you.

 

[Thomas savage]

It's statements like this that make it hard to take any of your conclusions seriously. This is dogma pure and simple. Hundreds of thousands of music fans hear differences due to how cables react to specific components but you do not. Several highly regarded cable companies even explain how their cables effect the sound - Analysis Plus, Audience and Shunyata come to mind. I suspect their engineers have a much better background to discuss these effects than you.

... ' end of ' ... ' period ' ..

It's certainly easier and I personally respect how you might come to this assertion. I once thought the same .

It's unfortunately nothing more than a declaration of ignorance, Harmless though and certainly not worth arguing about .