Review Questions for Flagship Processors: Trinnov, Storm, JBL, Lyngdorf, Datasat

[HTNut1975]

I appreciate the viewpoint, but that then raises the murky morals of whether people with more money matter more than the rest of us. The fair thing to do is work through the backlog in order of items received.

I really don’t think it does raise that question at all. It may be that some of the owners of higher priced stuff dont make any more than many of the owners loaning lower-priced stuff. It also doesn’t entail that priority of review entails greater value of a loaner. That said, surely you can see that, let’s say, a middle-class person who loans an AVR for review is sacrificing a bit more than she does when loaning a 50 dollar cable cord/headphone/usb dongle, etc., for review? It takes quite a bit more generosity/patience/risk to loan a Trinnov than a headphone set, and if time-value of money is a factor at all, it is likely costing that owner a significant amount more to do so.

 

[HTNut1975]

For starters Dirac can’t do 3D remapping.

But what does that functionally entail and how can that be measured to show greater performance?

 

[StuartC]

I really don’t think it does raise that question at all. It may be that some of the owners of higher priced stuff dont make any more than many of the owners loaning lower-priced stuff. It also doesn’t entail that priority of review entails greater value of a loaner. That said, surely you can see that, let’s say, a middle-class person who loans an AVR for review is sacrificing a bit more than she does when loaning a 50 dollar cable cord/headphone/usb dongle, etc., for review? It takes quite a bit more generosity/patience/risk to loan a Trinnov than a headphone set, and if time-value of money is a factor at all, it is likely costing that owner a significant amount more to do so.

I completely understand your point and agree that the level of risk (for want of a better term) is higher for those loaning out more expensive equipment. Nevertheless, I disagree with queue-jumping in (almost) any form (if you're about to miss a flight thats OK).

Anyway, we're in danger of hijacking this thread. Lets consider the point moot.

 

[HTNut1975]

I completely understand your point and agree that the level of risk (for want of a better term) is higher for those loaning out more expensive equipment. Nevertheless, I disagree with queue-jumping in (almost) any form (if you're about to miss a flight thats OK).

Anyway, we're in danger of hijacking this thread. Lets consider the point moot.

Lol very true. I was thinking the same thing! Carry on!

 

[RichB]

I would not view it as queue jumping because this is entirely up to @amirm. I respect his judgement.
I have sent gear into be tested, understanding there is a backlog and made it clear, that this was not an issue for me.

Concerning, high end processors, these are a special case due to price and the uniqueness of the review.
It makes sense to prioritize them over the 110'th DAC review.

Inquiring minds want to know...

- Rich

 

[Spocko]

I wonder if it’s even in Amir’s possession yet

Yes, it's confirmed that @amirm has received it last week directly from Trinnov, but where it is in the queue is a whole other matter!

 

[Spocko]

As a JBL SDP-75 owner (JBL version of Trinnov), it will be interesting but irrelevant to see how it measures when used as a traditional DAC/ADC/Preamp. Given the overall complexity of the system, it is likely to be measure in the mediocre range at very best and very possibly worse than that - which will not in the slightest affect my evaluation of this unit as maybe the best audio purchase I ever made. Barring almost unprecedentedly bad measurements, to evaluate this or the other advanced processors based on basic SINAD, jitter, etc is to miss the forest for the trees.

In my case, assembling an advanced multi-channel system around the SDP-75 has transformed both my music and movie experience. The combination of sophisticated speaker/room optimization and Auro-matic upmixing creates a music listening experience never approached by all of the expensive stereo systems I've owned through the years. Of course it's expensive, but it's expense with a real return.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[wavesharp]

I have one Trinnov Altitude 32，the best function is EQ and room optimation.

It could improve the frequency curve to flat or target curve. We could see the fig1, fig1 shows one AMP with Ncore 500 to drive one pair of LS50. Looks the curve became good, and sounds the low frequncy is improved obviously.
I like Trinnov.

 

[Dimifoot]

But what does that functionally entail and how can that be measured to show greater performance?

For example: if you have your center channel speaker below a tv, and it’s much lower than it should be compared to where the L-R speakers are (very common), the 3D remapping will “elevate” it using the other speakers, creating a phantom image to where it should be in space. So as a result you won’t hear the dialog coming from low down.
The same applies to suboptimally positioned surround or ceiling speakers, or when reproducing Atmos soundtracks with Auro3d speaker setups and vice versa.

 

[wavesharp]

For example: if you have your center channel speaker below a tv, and it’s much lower than it should be compared to where the L-R speakers are (very common), the 3D remapping will “elevate” it using the other speakers, creating a phantom image to where it should be in space. So as a result you won’t hear the dialog coming from low down.
The same applies to suboptimally positioned surround or ceiling speakers, or when reproducing Atmos soundtracks with Auro3d speaker setups and vice versa.

Remapping

 

[Dimifoot]

the curve

Try some down-sloping

 

[amirm]

I wonder if it’s even in Amir’s possession yet

It is.

 

[Spocko]

For example: if you have your center channel speaker below a tv, and it’s much lower than it should be compared to where the L-R speakers are (very common), the 3D remapping will “elevate” it using the other speakers, creating a phantom image to where it should be in space. So as a result you won’t hear the dialog coming from low down.
The same applies to suboptimally positioned surround or ceiling speakers, or when reproducing Atmos soundtracks with Auro3d speaker setups and vice versa.

This is an excellent point about layering on processing to elevate the movie watching experience, but attenuates signal purity when such DSP is applied. Since the prime objective of the cinema processor is for cinema, I believe it's a worthwhile tradeoff. The question is what objective measurements embody the virtues unique to AVR/processors that are completely missing from a simple DAC device? More importantly, what tools in Amir's arsenal can be purposed to uncover these data points?

 

[StuartC]

This is an excellent point about layering on processing to elevate the movie watching experience, but attenuates signal purity when such DSP is applied. Since the prime objective of the cinema processor is for cinema, I believe it's a worthwhile tradeoff. The question is what objective measurements embody the virtues unique to AVR/processors that are completely missing from a simple DAC device? More importantly, what tools in Amir's arsenal can be purposed to uncover these data points?

It seems to me that some input from the likes of Dolby or DTS would be useful here. Understanding what internal methods and metrics they use to determine the capability of a system to manipulate the sound field would be very useful.

Is there measurement equipment available which can pinpoint the phantom image location akin to the manner in which a human brain does?

 

[Spocko]

It seems to me that some input from the likes of Dolby or DTS would be useful here. Understanding what internal methods and metrics they use to determine the capability of a system to manipulate the sound field would be very useful.

Is there measurement equipment available which can pinpoint the phantom image location akin to the manner in which a human brain does?

Trinnov has the object visualizer that tells you where Atmos is supposed to be placing the sound.

 

[StuartC]

Trinnov has the object visualizer that tells you where Atmos is supposed to be placing the sound.
View attachment 118765

I see, but that is the processor's target, correct? A way of measuring the actual "position" and comparing the delta would be ideal.

 

[Spocko]

I see, but that is the processor's target, correct? A way of measuring the actual "position" and comparing the delta would be ideal.

Correct, that's the target placement - just thinking it through, if I was to design such a measuring device, it would definitely require microphone triangulation much like what Trinnov is doing with its 3D microphone. Then you would play specific test tones via Atmos processing to have that tone (sound "object") move in a perfect hemisphere around the MLP, maybe 60 points around and equidistant such that any variation from this target distance is identified as an error - assuming all speakers were properly placed to begin with.

Edit: Why hasn't Dolby created such a testing tool?? They easily have the engineering chops and equipment to at least put together a prototype to sell to movie theaters to verify speaker placement and processing accuracy!

 

[abdo123]

Correct, that's the target placement - just thinking it through, if I was to design such a measuring device, it would definitely require microphone triangulation much like what Trinnov is doing with its 3D microphone. Then you would play specific test tones via Atmos processing to have that tone (sound "object") move in a perfect hemisphere around the MLP, maybe 60 points around and equidistant such that any variation from this target distance is identified as an error - assuming all speakers were properly placed to begin with.

Edit: Why hasn't Dolby created such a testing tool?? They easily have the engineering chops and equipment to at least put together a prototype to sell to movie theaters to verify speaker placement and processing accuracy!

Dolby gets their coins by encoding the audio and selling people the decoder for home devices and the encoder to the content creators. Not so much by regulating room acoustics in everyone’s home.

 

[Spocko]

Dolby gets their coins by encoding the audio and selling people the decoder for home devices and the encoder to the content creators. Not so much by regulating room acoustics in everyone’s home.

True - and most consumers don't care! As long as it "feels immersive", what does it matter that the object is off by 12 inches here and there?
"Wow that bullet just whizzed by my head!"
"Your head? In my system the bullet whizzed by my armpit"

 

[Thunder22]

I would not view it as queue jumping because this is entirely up to @amirm. I respect his judgement.
I have sent gear into be tested, understanding there is a backlog and made it clear, that this was not an issue for me.

Concerning, high end processors, these are a special case due to price and the uniqueness of the review.
It makes sense to prioritize them over the 110'th DAC review.

Inquiring minds want to know...

- Rich

Or another headphone review.