Review Questions for Flagship Processors: Trinnov, Storm, JBL, Lyngdorf, Datasat

[Andysu]

I would hesitate to buy a PC based AVP based on the anticipated lifespan of the PC infrastructure. I just had a file server give up the ghost after 15+ years of loyal service in an air conditioned office. I was glad to get more than 10 years. If I bought the altitude 16 and it only lasted 10 years, I'd be very dissappointed. If I bought a Casablanca V, I'd be pretty confident that it would last 20+ years. Obsolete by then but still functioning like an old set of McIntosh Vu meters. Amir knows PCs, what's your take?

When we buy our CAD drafting desktops, we buy 5+ identical units + spare video cards, a spare proccesor, spare motherboard and clone hard drives that reside off-site so that we can swap them if / when needed. Would Trinnov entertain such a n option for cheap insurance purposes?

My Dolby Stereo CP200 used on ebay in working order took bit more to find rest of the units and was cheap for a cinema processor that Dolby labs stopped supporting around early 2000? And service parts few years later in early 2000's and that processor was released around March 1980, 40 years and still in use in selected cinemas to this day. I think a CP200 would be around £15 ,16 grand new. I have a Sony SDDS DFP-D3000 new I think around £20 grand and those came around 1993 and lasted for in some cinemas still to this day in some selected SDDS cinemas that are geared up for 35/70 and depending on public demand "U-571" in SDDS 8ch. I got my SDDS for £80.00. My CP200 far less than some selling them at nearly £3 grand and shouldn't cos they are no longer supported but regarded as best cinema processor ever made. I doubt trinnov will last 40 years for the price and I doubt will be supported for long depends if the company doesn't fold? Buying just for a 3d screen showing opjects moving around and I thought watching the movie was all about it? I could buy it 10 times, bit it doesn't look like a cinema processor has no direct audio or video mode buttons and just how fast is it with video mode switching does it have lag delay of many seconds cos I have seen Snails moving a lot faster than my Denon AVC-X8500H, and regret buying a Denon, Lemon that is slow and has bugs on it cos the Denon acts just like a cheap pc computer.

What know something funny? Saw a Dolby CP850 on ebay for £1.5 grand no joke, two of them but you need them formatted cos they would have some key and if you want the 64 channels got spend out more £ grand for 1U frame box and got pay Dolby labs for many more £ grand just to get the unlock key, Daylight Robbery. Then again the CP850 1.5 grand from ex dubbing theater that went bust and all the gear sold cheaply. CP850 I think sells for £18 grand? Rubbish don't like the look of it worst processor Dolby labs have made and has issues with sometimes getting an Atmos lock on the signal. CP950 looks even worse and I guess all lightweight compared to the other CP processors they made. Dolby's best seller was the CP65 around the 1990's and some cinemas still may use them expect for the digital 4k rubbish cinemas, cos they ain't no cinema just tv projection.

 

[Jim Noyd]

Here are a few that come to mind--

How much flexibility does the processor's bass management provide? What options are provided beyond the basic settings, including but not limited to filter types and slopes?

How much flexibility is available for assigning channel outputs to speakers? For example, is there a limitation on the number of subwoofer channels?

Does Processor X support the rendering of all the available channels defined by Dolby Atmos for the Home (34.1), or DTS:X Pro (30.2), or Auro-3D (13.1)?

Can the decoding and subsequent signal processing be updated over time as new formats and features emerge? If so, what are the costs?

If new decoders and signal processing upgrades are made available, do they require the unit to be returned for a hardware upgrade?

At what sampling rate and depth is the internal DSP performed?

What are the terms of the warranty?

What unique technologies or intellectual property has been incorporated into the product?

 

[MinMan]

Or you can buy better parts later ala carte if something fails like a current video card as performance increases substantially over time. Rare for those to fail, though.

Maybe the economics of a CAD desktop are unfamiliar - the software off the shelf is 3x the cost of the hardware, in our case, we spent another $35K customizing AutoCAD to suit our ease of use standards. It goes without saying that the desktop builds are all custom; Intel gaming motherboards, enterprise hard drives that we swap out every 5+ years before they might even have a chance of crashing. Get my drift?

Does Trinnov permits you to lengthen the life cycle of their equipment with the purchase of redundant hardware or clone of your system profiles to be available in the case of catastrophe. I'm thinking that their motherboards, hard drives / SSD and video cards are not bespoke.

They are only using an i3 processor, maybe they would be willing to offer a redundancy upgrade built in whereby there is a second CPU, motherboard, video card, w/ SSD that periodically mirrors the system in primary use such that in the event of system failure a switch could be thrown that makes the redundant PC system infrastructure primary thereby doubling the life-cycle. There might be an upscale market for that... something not entirely unlike what Tandem Computers did back in the 1980's & 1990's.

 

[dlinsley]

Does Trinnov permits you to lengthen the life cycle of their equipment

They announced a refresh program for owners of the Alitude 32 who's five year warranty has now expired (the oldest 16s are just coming up on three years old and so have another two years to go), which can replace parts, the top part of the case and add another five years of warranty. A full refresh with new warranty is around $5k: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/trinnov-altitude.1516103/post-60408455

 

[lashto]

Some high hopes/expectations around here.
Those so called flagships have been tested before and looks like some people might be seriously dissapointed.

See https://www.avsforum.com/threads/th...ith-htp-1-owners-thread.3112176/post-59256662 and subsequent posts.
The only "flagship" I can see there are the prices, the SINADs are somewhere between unimpressive (94db) and lousy (80db)

And here's an older Datasat which seems to measure better than all the above. Still nowhere near $20000 quality
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews...atasat-rs20i-surround-sound-processor-review/

 

[Scott Borduin]

As a JBL SDP-75 owner (JBL version of Trinnov), it will be interesting but irrelevant to see how it measures when used as a traditional DAC/ADC/Preamp. Given the overall complexity of the system, it is likely to be measure in the mediocre range at very best and very possibly worse than that - which will not in the slightest affect my evaluation of this unit as maybe the best audio purchase I ever made. Barring almost unprecedentedly bad measurements, to evaluate this or the other advanced processors based on basic SINAD, jitter, etc is to miss the forest for the trees.

In my case, assembling an advanced multi-channel system around the SDP-75 has transformed both my music and movie experience. The combination of sophisticated speaker/room optimization and Auro-matic upmixing creates a music listening experience never approached by all of the expensive stereo systems I've owned through the years. Of course it's expensive, but it's expense with a real return.

 

[StuartC]

As a JBL SDP-75 owner (JBL version of Trinnov), it will be interesting but irrelevant to see how it measures when used as a traditional DAC/ADC/Preamp. Given the overall complexity of the system, it is likely to be measure in the mediocre range at very best and very possibly worse than that - which will not in the slightest affect my evaluation of this unit as maybe the best audio purchase I ever made. Barring almost unprecedentedly bad measurements, to evaluate this or the other advanced processors based on basic SINAD, jitter, etc is to miss the forest for the trees.

In my case, assembling an advanced multi-channel system around the SDP-75 has transformed both my music and movie experience. The combination of sophisticated speaker/room optimization and Auro-matic upmixing creates a music listening experience never approached by all of the expensive stereo systems I've owned through the years. Of course it's expensive, but it's expense with a real return.

This ^^^^^.

The main reason most people buy an AVR or AVP is for the home theatre experience if we're all honest with ourselves. If we want mega music reproduction we generally expand into 2-channel or accept the situation. The ability of a given AVR/AVP to manipulate the sound field and provide an immersive environment is possibly the most important attribute they can provide. Explosions, gun shots and panned motion don't need to be audibly perfect.

@amirm Is there a test using a 3D microphone and a given number of speakers that could monitor the ability of the AVR/AVP to pan sounds around the listening space? Obviously the best units would accurately create phantom images between speakers rather than the fading localisation that can be apparent with poor implementations.

I appreciate this would require a dedicated set of surround speakers to be on hand, but for me this is one of the key points I consider when upgrading my HT setup. The speakers don't need to be the last word in hifi, just good enough for the purposes of following the changing sound field.

 

[TimoJ]

Given the overall complexity of the system, it is likely to be measure in the mediocre range at very best and very possibly worse than that

I then expect it to have "headless panther" score.

 

[Koeitje]

I have to agree. Pure Direct means no subwoofers can be used, so in a home theater context, that mode doesn't make sense. Well, I'd argue the same for 2-channel music as my system is unchanged regardless of source content.

This is important, I want to know the sound quality I will be getting when using the built-in crossover and am using a subwoofer. That's the most common use case of these machines. If I wanted 2.0 I'd buy a 2.0 amplifier.

 

[Chromatischism]

@amirm Is there a test using a 3D microphone and a given number of speakers that could monitor the ability of the AVR/AVP to pan sounds around the listening space? Obviously the best units would accurately create phantom images between speakers rather than the fading localisation that can be apparent with poor implementations.

I don't see him testing this but it would be a very interesting development if differences were uncovered there as that's all supposed to be standardized by Dolby/DTS etc.

 

[zuli]

Am I the only one who presses the refresh button several times a day hoping that Trinnov's review will finally appear?

 

[abdo123]

Am I the only one who presses the refresh button several times a day hoping that Trinnov's review will finally appear?

well Amir usually has ~2 months of backlog, assuming @Spocko sent the processor sometime after his collab with Amir then I would forget about that review for sometime.

Surprises happen though

 

[HTNut1975]

As a JBL SDP-75 owner (JBL version of Trinnov), it will be interesting but irrelevant to see how it measures when used as a traditional DAC/ADC/Preamp. Given the overall complexity of the system, it is likely to be measure in the mediocre range at very best and very possibly worse than that - which will not in the slightest affect my evaluation of this unit as maybe the best audio purchase I ever made. Barring almost unprecedentedly bad measurements, to evaluate this or the other advanced processors based on basic SINAD, jitter, etc is to miss the forest for the trees.

In my case, assembling an advanced multi-channel system around the SDP-75 has transformed both my music and movie experience. The combination of sophisticated speaker/room optimization and Auro-matic upmixing creates a music listening experience never approached by all of the expensive stereo systems I've owned through the years. Of course it's expensive, but it's expense with a real return.

I tend to agree. That said, how could one tally a set of objective attributes to compare Eq systems? That seems to be what would primarily differentiate Trinnov from something like Dirac. I am curious if the Trinnov eq system is objectively superior to Dirac with its full Bass Control. But, how would we go about assessing that?

Also, it seems to me that the vast majority of the Trinnov price is its intellectual property—not the components. Were I an owner of the company, I would worry about pirated Trinnov clones.

 

[Blackdevil77]

I wonder if it’s even in Amir’s possession yet

 

[HTNut1975]

well Amir usually has ~2 months of backlog, assuming @Spocko sent the processor sometime after his collab with Amir then I would forget about that review for sometime.

Surprises happen though

Yikes! I would imagine a 20-30k rig would get priority over a 50 dollar dongle or something of the like!

 

[StuartC]

Yikes! I would imagine a 20-30k rig would get priority over a 50 dollar dongle or something of the like!

Personally I think quite the opposite. A $50 dongle is considerably more likely to be bought by the majority of the members of this forum. I know I don't have £20k burning a hole in my pocket, and if I did I'd probably use it as a deposit on a second property to generate rental income.

 

[HTNut1975]

Personally I think quite the opposite. A $50 dongle is considerably more likely to be bought by the majority of the members of this forum. I know I don't have £20k burning a hole in my pocket, and if I did I'd probably use it as a deposit on a second property to generate rental income.

I understand that, but I’m thinking in terms of the owner of the product (and not how many may buy the product). There is a difference in commitment between loaning a set of headphones for review and loaning a product that‘s of the same market value as a new car.

 

[Dimifoot]

Also, it seems to me that the vast majority of the Trinnov price is its intellectual property—not the components.

Exactly

 

[StuartC]

I understand that, but I’m thinking in terms of the owner of the product (and not how many may buy the product). There is a difference in commitment between loaning a set of headphones for review and loaning a product that‘s of the same market value as a new car.

I appreciate the viewpoint, but that then raises the murky morals of whether people with more money matter more than the rest of us. The fair thing to do is work through the backlog in order of items received.

 

[Dimifoot]

I am curious if the Trinnov eq system is objectively superior to Dirac with its full Bass Control. But, how would we go about assessing that?

For starters Dirac can’t do 3D remapping.