Review Questions for Flagship Processors: Trinnov, Storm, JBL, Lyngdorf, Datasat

[hex168]

I hear you but my analyzer can only test two channels at once. To test a third channel, then I need to re-run all the tests again with that one channel. Is that what you are asking? Things like jitter, IMD vs level, etc., etc.?

Possibly dumb question: do you still have your old analyser, and if so could you rig something to test three channels simultaneously?

 

[eycatcher]

How about preamp output squarewave response testing?

 

[amirm]

Possibly dumb question: do you still have your old analyser, and if so could you rig something to test three channels simultaneously?

No, I sold my old analyzer a while back. Wouldn't have worked as I could not feed the older analyzer with HDMI sources.

One thing I could do here to shorten testing is to test Left+Center instead of Left and Right. What say you all?

 

[abdo123]

First a note: FYI, processors are the subject of this thread. Processors don't have power amplifiers.

You are missing the point of the measurements in pure direct and in pure analog configurations. The concept is to isolate the performance of portions of the product. The ASR measurements isolate the basic analog performance and basic digital performance. These measurements are very valuable. If a unit under test has problems in the analog or basic digital modes, those won't somehow magically go away when the equipment is used in more complex ways. Owners of poorly measuring equipment seem at times to make this magical case.

Most of the processors that are measured in ASR have results that range IMO from very good (7), to poor(1), and that is using a very easy grading scale, not against two channel DAC's. None of the products would rate excellent(10). It seems doubtful that many, if any AVP/AVR manufacturers, are overjoyed with the measurement results in ASR.

It will be more difficult to prepare apples-to-apples comparisons between units using sound processing, since the actual details of the digital processing in many of these units is not public, but the data would be interesting. The standards for comparison are also not clear.

Exactly what data should be in the the left surround channel with a stereo input, which in itself can be in many forms, sent to the processor and up-mixed using various forms of Dolby or DTS processing. Is there a standard Dirac test case with established standard outputs?

Since you made these suggestions then perhaps you can supply some of the required data to evaluate the results.

I’m not saying not to measure in these modes, but to have both measurements at least.

While I agree with every point you mentioned there, this site is aiming towards raising consumer awareness rather than publishing in academic journals. If a product is broken outside ‘Pure Direct’, then that is more important to make a decision about a purchase than having an apples to apples comparison.

 

[MarsianC#]

One thing I could do here to shorten testing is to test Left+Center instead of Left and Right. What say you all?

Ok for me, as long as a crossover is applied. I reckon all channels measure same, but you never know.

 

[diddley]

Looking forward to the review high expectations

 

[MZKM]

No, I sold my old analyzer a while back. Wouldn't have worked as I could not feed the older analyzer with HDMI sources.

One thing I could do here to shorten testing is to test Left+Center instead of Left and Right. What say you all?

That‘s good for me. The center should perform the same/similar in terms of crosstalk, so no real need to test both L & R (channel imbalance can be taken care of in the level settings).

I second that an 80Hz crossover should be utilized. Not sure how easy to do that unless you plug it in to tv to navigate the menu though.

 

[RichB]

No, I sold my old analyzer a while back. Wouldn't have worked as I could not feed the older analyzer with HDMI sources.

One thing I could do here to shorten testing is to test Left+Center instead of Left and Right. What say you all?

Left + Center with crossovers engaged and standard mode would be great. The give the option to chart the differences between Left Pure/Direct and Left crossed at 80 Hz.

- Rich

 

[Spocko]

No, I sold my old analyzer a while back. Wouldn't have worked as I could not feed the older analyzer with HDMI sources.

One thing I could do here to shorten testing is to test Left+Center instead of Left and Right. What say you all?

I'm all for it because for home theater applications, the center carries most of the meaningful content - namely dialogue. When playing a movie with dialogue, if you disconnect the center channel, the dialogue track is significantly attenuated as the center was doing most of the heavy lifting.

 

[peng]

Amir, do you think it is worth testing it with a real power amp (one that you have measurements on hand, and did >96 dB, higher the better) and measure SINAD at the power amp output while driven by the AVP under test? I thought that way we can see how much SINAD would drop going from the AVP output to power amp output.

Obviously such as test would be even more meaningful for an AVR, and less so for an AVP.

 

[Andysu]

1) Dolby DSU vs Dolby Pro-Logic for channel cross-talk
2) S/N ratio of all channels
3) can it do manual EQ and how good is the manual EQ is it user friendly or tricky
4) can it do five screen left-centre right-centre
5) what do all the surround channel outputs for the side surrounds sound like? I was under impression it can do surround arrays along the sidewall as well as back wall like in pro Atmos cinemas, I belive it is called "pan-though".
6) Does it have built-in DSP crossover for two way speakers for five screen?
7) I don't think it is worth £20 grand does it have NR for some Yes you can get older movies or some that have mild hum and hiss so does it have built NR if answer is no it ain't worth £20 grand.

 

[Chrise36]

How about in room Frequency Response testing with DSP on/off. First with 2 channel and then multichannel stereo.

 

[Dimifoot]

There must be a multichannel Audio Precision.
@amirm how much would an upgrade cost? Maybe us AV enthusiasts will be happy to donate some more

 

[amirm]

It cost 35000 and has lower precision than mine.

 

[Spocko]

It cost 35000 and has lower precision than mine.

Lower precision because for home theater applications, such precision is not necessary?

 

[Spocko]

1) Dolby DSU vs Dolby Pro-Logic for channel cross-talk
2) S/N ratio of all channels
3) can it do manual EQ and how good is the manual EQ is it user friendly or tricky
4) can it do five screen left-centre right-centre
5) what do all the surround channel outputs for the side surrounds sound like? I was under impression it can do surround arrays along the sidewall as well as back wall like in pro Atmos cinemas, I belive it is called "pan-though".
6) Does it have built-in DSP crossover for two way speakers for five screen?
7) I don't think it is worth £20 grand does it have NR for some Yes you can get older movies or some that have mild hum and hiss so does it have built NR if answer is no it ain't worth £20 grand.

Many of your questions refer to feature availability rather than core performance metrics as it relates to what Amir can verify with his Audio Precision tool box. And finally, don't forget that the point of this thread is to discuss reasonable measurement requests and not debate value to performance - you can reserve that for the actual review thread when the Trinnov review is posted.

 

[MZKM]

How about in room Frequency Response testing with DSP on/off. First with 2 channel and then multichannel stereo.

Amir has done a few reviews of room correction, he did one for Audyssey and Lyndorph for instance.

 

[MZKM]

Amir, do you think it is worth testing it with a real power amp (one that you have measurements on hand, and did >96 dB, higher the better) and measure SINAD at the power amp output while driven by the AVP under test? I thought that way we can see how much SINAD would drop going from the AVP output to power amp output.

Obviously such as test would be even more meaningful for an AVR, and less so for an AVP.

Worst case scenario is when their noise/distortion is the same, whIch lowers SINAD by about 3dB. If they aren’t the same, the worst offender takes over (-80dB with -70dB result in ~-69.6dB, if everything is the same). So, care about the SINAD of the weakest link, not the combo.

 

[Chrise36]

Amir has done a few reviews of room correction, he did one for Audyssey and Lyndorph for instance.

It would be helpful to see what these expensive systems can do. Also i can not recall if a multichannel speaker system has been measured here. That would be a first i think.

 

[Spocko]

How about in room Frequency Response testing with DSP on/off. First with 2 channel and then multichannel stereo.

I think it would be more difficult with multichannel as it would require at least 5 matching speakers?