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Response to PS Audio on P12 PowerPlant Measurements (Video)

Sgt. Ear Ache

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lol oh my. Interesting to learn that someone who is seeking things that benefit sound in meaningful, provable and real ways rather than imaginary (and usually expensive) ones is considered by Paul to be a "thorn in the side" of the industry. Also interesting to learn we're the ones interested in drama rather than discovering something "useful" about a product. Really, it shouldn't be necessary to "discover" something useful about a product though...should it?
 
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MattHooper

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Agreed! I own one, and am currently furious and unclear what to do next. The PS Audio forum continues to blow my mind. The PS Audio website descriptions of the product continues to detail "regenerates new, safe, and pure AC", when PS Audio themselves are now stating the device neither generates new AC nor pure AC.

I believe I saw some of your posts there. You were asking for more information in the politest way possible, but encountering all sorts of dodging, weaving and deflection. It was sad.
 

JSmith

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PS Audio and Paul in particular are masters at creating uncertainty and doubt, even fear, in the audio community and specifically target those that may not understand, those who have trust in PS Audio to not mislead them. It's not far off the operational standards of the Church of Scientology. I hope they can change for the better, as being honest about products is paramount to running a good business.


JSmith
 

thd

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I believe I saw some of your posts there. You were asking for more information in the politest way possible, but encountering all sorts of dodging, weaving and deflection. It was sad.
Thank you! Yep. Its wild that so many people there refuse to believe the truth being presented, and even possibly believe they were duped as well. Feels like they are already too far gone.
 

HiFidFan

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Thank you! Yep. Its wild that so many people there refuse to believe the truth being presented, and even possibly believe they were duped as well. Feels like they are already too far gone.

The sheer amount of gaslighting over there is rather impressive.
 

CtheArgie

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PS Audio and Paul in particular are masters at creating uncertainty and doubt, even fear, in the audio community and specifically target those that may not understand, those who have trust in PS Audio to not mislead them. It's not far off the operational standards of the Church of Scientology. I hope they can change for the better, as being honest about products is paramount to running a good business.


JSmith
I used the Scientology parallel in a comment there.
 

fcracer

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Agreed! I own one, and am currently furious and unclear what to do next. The PS Audio forum continues to blow my mind. The PS Audio website descriptions of the product continues to detail "regenerates new, safe, and pure AC", when PS Audio themselves are now stating the device neither generates new AC nor pure AC.
Take PS Audio to court, and if you win, share the process with others so that PS Audio can learn through a mechanism (justice system) less easily manipulated through social media and FUD. At the very least, file complaints with various regulators, BBB, Consumer Protection entities, and the local government. People need to take away their cost/benefit of putting out misleading products.
 

Ricardus

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Disgusting is what it is. It is a concerted effort, with a cabal of regulars who get away with all kinds of insults and deflection. In my mind, it is reflective of the company.
I would say more than the company. It is reflective of "audiophile" culture in general which is inherently narcissistic. Gaslighting is their main thing.
 

restorer-john

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The patent is is worth a read. Attached as a PDF for anyone interested.

1648439334851.png
 

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  • US7259705B2.pdf
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MAB

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So netting it out:

View attachment 195843

One leg of AC goes from input to output. Then the other leg is regenerated with +- 60 volt amplifier in sync with the incoming AC.
I have an Elgar 6000B. They used similar scheme in 1974 as PS Audio. They have a detailed manual with schematics, typical of good instrumentation. And a section on how to adjust the reference oscillator phase so the regenerated signal removes the most of the harmonics. And a section on how to measure and verify harmonics are minimized, as well as tests and collaterals to verify most of the published specifications.
1648444901771.png

It was useful in a lab, but just doesn't make an audible difference in my hifi system which operates in a totally different noise environment. And I am having a hard time given he measurements and the facts here thinking the P12 does anything different.
 

solderdude

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For those with some technical knowledge/interest some explaining what it does.
You will need to open the attachment (in another tab ?) posted by @restorer-john (see post # 231) which I will be referencing to.

Looks like how the P3 is built (the bypass relay K1 is only used in the P3).
The input voltage sync is obtained using an opto coupler (U7). Pin 5 goes 'high' on zero crossing.
It is a trigger for a upc that generates a digital sine wave fed into a simple DAC (U4) with some post filtering U1a (as would be used in an audio DAC).

That constant amplitude and sync'd frequency signal acts as a reference which is compared to the (attenuated) mains input waveform (U1b)

The difference signal coming out of U1b goes into a class B (so not class AB) amplifier.
The smart bit is the amplifier runs on +/- 30V but the output devices run on +/- 15V.
This means that the class B amplifier dissipates less heat as it has only 15V over the output transistors which has to pass the mains current yet it has a swing of +/- 28V meaning it can generate 19V AC.
120V - 19V = 101 and 120V + 19 = 139V.

This is only a principal schematic and given the spec'd 95-145V input range the actual rail voltage inside the P12 would have to be at least +/- 40V.
maybe even higher if they still want to correct the waveform at those voltages. So in the range of +/- 45V or so which makes sense given the 63V rating of the reservoir caps.

Anyway... the mains Live signal goes through a tapped winding of the the power transformer T1. That winding appears to be about 2x10V AC.
The rectified +/- 15V DC feeds the output voltage and floats along on the Live mains. This is why all of the crap present on mains is also visible on the output of the P12. Not shown on the schematic but clearly present in the P12 is the mains is filtered (which some audiophools claim is bad for dynamics) and given the spec sheet also has surge protection.

That Live mains is thus passing through the transformer and rectifier and subsequently through the output devices of the class B amplifier.
That class B amplifier is fed with the difference between a nice pure constant sine (generated by the DAC) and the Live input voltage so the output voltage (the difference signal) is added to the Live input. This way the mains output gets its shape back but passes crap above several kHz as the amp has a certain bandwidth and the DAC filter will introduce phase shifts near its Nyquist so cannot correct higher frequencies.
This crap thus must be filtered at the input of the P12 and thus is as good as any passive 'line conditioner' is.

The only difference is regulation and waveform is also corrected which a mains filter won't.

In order to let the class B amplifier still be able to correct the output voltage more than 9V AC (given the +/-15V rail voltage on the amp) the dual 10V AC from T1 also is fed to a voltage doubler formed by D1 through D6 and C5 to C8. This provides +/- 30V riding along with the Live input signal. This feeds the low current amplifier stage which drives the output devices so a swing of +/- 28V or so (19V AC) is available.

This is quite different from the older PowerPlants (the ones that were inefficient and got very hot). Those ones actually simply rectified mains (so AC to DC) which fed a large amplifier which then provided a new AC sine wave. It was easy to adjust the frequency this way as well and was truly cleaned from gremlins on the mains.
The new PPP simply passes mains crap but attenuated by a passive filter.
 
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solderdude

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And I am having a hard time given he measurements and the facts here thinking the P12 does anything different

It does do something different. in the PPP the correction signal is directly added to mains Live. In the Elgar the output is galvanically separated, the PPP is not.

In the Elgar the correction signal is added to a secondary winding of the transformer. This means the transformer of the PPP can be smaller in size/weight compared to the one used in the Elgar.
Also the synchronization and reference generation is not digital but all analog.
Because this is digital in the PPP it allows functions like MultiWave and analysis displays.

So while they have a similar function (mains + correction) the PPP is smarter in efficiency (heat generation) and functionality but the Elgar, when measured, may well be a bit cleaner in waveform and when not bypassed.
 
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MAB

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It does do something different. in the PPP the correction signal is directly added to mains Live. In the Elgar the output is galvanically separated, the PPP is not.

In the Elgar the correction signal is added to a secondary winding of the transformer. This means the transformer of the PPP can be smaller in size/weight compared to the one used in the Elgar.
Also the synchronization and reference generation is not digital but all analog.
Because this is digital in the PPP it allows functions like MultiWave and analysis displays.

So while they have a similar function (mains + correction) the PPP is smarter in efficiency (heat generation) and functionality but the Elgar, when measured, may well be a bit cleaner in waveform and when not bypassed.
Thanks for the correction.
 

don'ttrustauthority

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The fact that Amir is a bit of a sourpuss in no way is relevant to the fact that PSAudio has not answered the challenge to provide blind test results to show their product actually does anything for $6000. What should happen now is that people should see how much money they took from COVID funding, and see what they did with that money. Maybe we have a little accounting issue to investigate.

I do not understand their refusal to do a blind test, it would be quick and easy. Take a half hour, maybe a few minutes more to set up. Would you not want to know that the items you make for a living do what they say, instead of just going in to make something that doesn't do what you think, and find out when you retire with months to live due to a serious cancer that you made nothing for no one?

Six thousand dollars could save a family starving in the third world.
 
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don'ttrustauthority

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Agreed! I own one, and am currently furious and unclear what to do next. The PS Audio forum continues to blow my mind. The PS Audio website descriptions of the product continues to detail "regenerates new, safe, and pure AC", when PS Audio themselves are now stating the device neither generates new AC nor pure AC.
Have you contacted PSAudio about a refund? Make sure you do not say anything, just ask for information on how to proceed for returning your device give the current facts out. I would think that 12 of your peers would take your side, don't you?
 
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don'ttrustauthority

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You said they should go with the measurements. Measurements will always show that power conditioning of any form will never** make improvemenents to the audio quality on the output of audio devices, for the reasons clearly stated by Amir. Therefore if they go with the measurements they'll have to admit that, though they can improve mains qualtity with these devices, they can never make the improvements to audio they currently claim they can.


** (except in cases of exceptionally poor mains quality that prevents kit from running properly at all - but then basic UPS at 1/10th the price or less will do the same job)
I meant they should develop products, as Schiit started doing with Amir's help, that measure well enough to sell in quantities larger than the one they sold to Amir's friend that Amir says is worthless.
 

restorer-john

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Have you contacted PSAudio about a refund? Make sure you do not say anything, just ask for information on how to proceed for returning your device give the current facts out. I would think that 12 of your peers would take your side, don't you?

And this is why the internet is such a complete mess. A total fiasco of unsubstantiated garbage, vested interests and complete circus clowns prosecuting their puerile agendas along with a baying peanut gallery of followers and enablers, none of whom possess even a modicum of independent thinking skills, letalone technical knowledge or understanding.

What's that famous saying again? "The best thing about the internet is that it gives everyone a voice. The worst thing about the internet is that it gives everyone a voice"

:facepalm:

 
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