Not just Snake Oil... but patented Snake Oil. Any IP lawyers with insight?

[Deleted member 43957]

In another thread, I went OT when I went off about Dedicated Audio's patented cable lifters, so I wanted to address it here, how patents are used to market snake oil. On Dedicated Audio's website they market their own cable lifters, with impressive claims and BOLDLY list the patent number as seen here. (Did they think that no one would look it up?) https://www.dedicatedaudio.com/coll...e-tower-v2-audio-video-cable-support-kit-of-4

US PATENT #D565,389

• Decrease Smear - Increase Resolution
• Uninterrupted Cable Flux Field
• Controls Resonance
• Unequaled Performance Design
• Low Contact Surface Area
• Stable Four Point Design
• Two Cable Support Capability
• Extremely Low Dielectric Constant
• Low Capacitance to Ground Test Results
• Exceedingly Low Insertion Capacitance
• Accepts Cables to 1.4" - 37mm
• 4.5"/11.5cm Tall - 3.5"/9.0cm Wide
• State of the Art CNC Machined Acrylic
• Made in USA

CABLE TOWER design, trademarks and patents are solely owned by Dedicated Audio LLC
________________________
Another member posted "I am not quite sure how one patents a device that holds something up off the ground." So, I looked up the patent, expecting to see these claims in the application or patent itself, they were not. (https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/5b/91/51/164581477b210f/USD565389.pdf)

The only claim is: "The ornamental design for a cable Support, as shown and described". That's it, no mention of "flux field, performance, dialectic constant", etc. Nothing about function whatsoever as touted on the site, only ornamental design.

Is this taking the practice of validating Snake Oil one step further, to be able to market the design patent as one of function?
Does that make it even more nefarious, that they filed for a design, so they could market the patent as functionality? Yes. I think it does.

This would be analogous to patenting a new color, Vantablack for example, then attributing therapeutic qualities that have not been tested or proven and marketing it as "patented".

Another egregious example is P.S. Audio. How many patents held by P.S. Audio have been proven to not do what they claim when put through Amir's testing? https://patents.justia.com/assignee/ps-audio

"PS Audio holds patents for several technologies in the audio field, particularly in the areas of power regulation and audio transducers. One key area of innovation and patented technology for PS Audio has been in the area of AC power regeneration. The company introduced the Power Plant Premier, which utilized a patented tracking AC technology for AC regenerators. This technology aimed to provide cleaner and more stable power to audio components, improving their performance. The PerfectWave line of AC regenerators is the current generation of this technology."

I'm not a lawyer, patent holder or engineer. Any knowledgeable insight is welcome.

 

[mhardy6647]

I'd opine that the issue's with the issuance of a patent, not the filing of [edit] a patent application.
There's supposed to be... you know... a process that weeds out the chaff.

 

[Kremmen]

The design of this cable lifter is typical of those I would see in secondary school Design and Technology projects produced by 11-year-olds. Nothing more than that.

A flat piece of coloured acrylic is drilled to produce the holes shown and the arcs are sawn with a coping saw or scroll saw and sanded smooth. The acrylic is then heated across the middle and bent to the folded shape shown. A primary school child could do it to be honest.

BTW, in the 'Features' section of their website the features are presented as seen the attached image, which could indicate that they are listing the patent as one of the features, rather than indicating that the features under the patent in bold characters are directly referenced in the patent. This could be seen as being disingenuous of course.

 

[Deleted member 43957]

I'd opine that the issue's with the issuance of a patent, not the filing of [edit] a patent application.
There's supposed to be... you know... a process that weeds out the chaff.

That's readily apparent in the P.S. Audio example, where they claim functionality. I guess not.

 

[KenA]

As you’ve eluded, it’s a design patent, and refers to no functionality.
Its legal to mention a patent In marketing. However, it becomes ethically questionable if they imply that patent then proves the performance claims.
Consumer laws in some countries could probably challenge this as false advertising if those performance claims are shown to be unsubstantiated. Which can be a problem as the claims such as ‘smear reduction’ and ‘resonance control’ are not exactly measurable.
This kind of marketing just preys on the appearance of being legit.

 

[Deleted member 43957]

The design of this cable lifter is typical of those I would see in secondary school Design and Technology projects produced by 11-year-olds. Nothing more than that.

A flat piece of coloured acrylic is drilled to produce the holes shown and the arcs are sawn with a coping saw and sanded smooth. The acrylic is then heated across the middle and bent to the folded shape shown. A primary school child could do it to be honest.

I don't really have an issue with that. Claiming beyond design to justified price is the definition of snake oil, imo.

 

[Frank Dernie]

The use of woolly meaning of the common use of English words is exploited here.
Design is used for styling and used for the engineering of the conceptual physics and manufacturing technology of an item.

So here "ornamental" design is patented and technical superiority is implied in marketing by the fact it is patented, deceitful.

Engineer is another. In some languages it is quite precise, in English it is well defined but widely used in a woolly fashion such that in general parlance engineer is used for anybody from an actual engineer to a technician repairing or making a part, a mechanic fitting a part, an electrician changing light bulbs to a plumber repairing a water main.

 

[Deleted member 43957]

I thought it only fair to invite Dedicated Audio to defend their claims, so I did. Hopefully, they'll respond and do so. Here is the invitation:
--------------------
I recently found your site and your patented cable lifters. I invite you to respond/correct a recent post that raises questions about your cable lifter claims and how those impact your veracity as a dealer. https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...-snake-oil-any-ip-lawyers-with-insight.64109/

This is a forum of audio professionals from all over the world. Your testing measurements, methodologies and protocols followed are the only language this group speaks. Subjective claims without evidence will be disregarded as such.

Please post your response in the forum. For transparency, any reply to this email will be considered on the record and will be publicly posted.

 

[RalphB]

That's readily apparent in the P.S. Audio example, where they claim functionality. I guess not.

Some of Paul's videos are equally absurd.

 

[mhardy6647]

Some of Paul's videos are equally absurd.

I have long found it fascinating that many of his videos contain statements that are just plain wrong.

 

[Deleted member 43957]

I have long found it fascinating that many of his videos contain statements that are just plain wrong.

There's more than one instance on ASR, as I recall, where Paul's DAC designer(as I recall) Chris, had to walk back a claim that Paul made in his vids. He did it in a very transparent manner, imo.

Paul is just a guy in a top hat announcing circus acts... ya gotta expect huge piles of elephant sh#t.

 

[Punter]

Laser cut acrylic plastic. Going on the supplied dimensions, each unit would be around $0.60 in materials and then some putz will have to put the part on a jig which heats the plastic (probably with a nichrome wire element) and then bend it. $29.98 per unit with material costs at 2% and labor maybe 3% so 95% margin!

 

[egellings]

Laser cut acrylic plastic. Going on the supplied dimensions, each unit would be around $0.60 in materials and then some putz will have to put the part on a jig which heats the plastic (probably with a nichrome wire element) and then bend it. $29.98 per unit with material costs at 2% and labor maybe 3% so 95% margin!

View attachment 465282

You probably need several of them to suspend the entire length of the cable, too. I'm in the wrong business!

 

[G|force]

I wonder how much the silk screen adds to the cost. I made my own cable risers with Lego Technic.

[Spoiler- No I didn't]

 

[Soniclife]

I made my own cable risers with Lego Technic.

Lots of little Lego figures holding up your cables would be fun, and probably cheaper.

 

[Speedskater]

a Design Patent is much like a Copyright. It applies to the shape or style of the device.
It a nothing to do with the device's function.
like a Coke bottle.

 

[DVDdoug]

The design of this cable lifter is typical of those I would see in secondary school Design and Technology projects produced by 11-year-olds. Nothing more than that.

I don't know anything about "design patents". They seem similar to a trademark. But I'm pretty sure it doesn't have to be difficult to make. I seem to remember reading that the paper clip was patented.

Laser cut acrylic plastic. Going on the supplied dimensions, each unit would be around $0.60 in materials and then some putz will have to put the part on a jig which heats the plastic (probably with a nichrome wire element) and then bend it. $29.98 per unit with material costs at 2% and labor maybe 3% so 95% margin!

Even snake oil has overhead costs. And apples grow on trees, diamonds and oil come out of the ground, but they aren't free.

But even more importantly, the more expensive the item the more desirable it is to the audiophool. You wouldn't want those cheap cable lifters!

 

[mhardy6647]

Lots of little Lego figures holding up your cables would be fun, and probably cheaper.

But, but... what is the Lego figure's dielectric constant? That is very important for cable risers, according to the cable riser industry.

 

[kemmler3D]

The only claim is: "The ornamental design for a cable Support, as shown and described". That's it, no mention of "flux field, performance, dialectic constant", etc. Nothing about function whatsoever as touted on the site, only ornamental design.

Design patents pertain to industrial design, another famous example would be Apple v. Samsung in which infringement of rounded corners was alleged and found (seriously.) They're not meaningful in terms of function / technology.

e: What really bakes my noodle about this, is they applied for a design patent for a truly trivial design. Like @Punter says, these cost almost nothing to make and the design could be banged out by anyone with a copy of Inkscape in about 8 minutes - one rectangle, 5 circles, one boolean operation, add the logo, done. Was this really worth paying for a patent?

Like they finished this design and were so impressed with their creativity that they got scared someone would steal this "idea"? I think the much more likely explanation is inline with @Astoneroad 's post - they're using the design patent to falsely imply their bogus technical claims are true. Otherwise, and I cannot emphasize this enough, why bother?

Laser cut acrylic plastic. Going on the supplied dimensions, each unit would be around $0.60 in materials and then some putz will have to put the part on a jig which heats the plastic (probably with a nichrome wire element) and then bend it. $29.98 per unit with material costs at 2% and labor maybe 3% so 95% margin!

View attachment 465282

Yep, I've made parts like that, and with an acrylic bender (basically just a horizontal space heater with a space to hold the acrylic above the heater) and a laser cutter you could crank out a hundred per hour by yourself.

If you are really cheaping out you don't even need a silkscreen step, you can laser-cut the adhesive backing on the acrylic sheet to make a stencil and just spraypaint it. I made a bunch of signage for my wedding this way. It came out surprisingly nice. It just takes a long time to weed the stencils, but on black material like this, maybe you just raster it...?

I almost don't blame them for fleecing rubes like this. Taking candy from a baby is wrong, but if the baby throws the candy into your hand, are you obligated to give it back?

 

[egellings]

Kay Bull!