Speaker lamentations - measurements vs price vs sound

[NicC]

Hi everyone,

In my downtime, I really enjoy reading through threads on ASR. I find the discussions fascinating and often way over my head. Yesterday, I was reading about speaker measurements and came across a comment that basically said: if a speaker measures well, it will sound good.

From what I've gathered, it seems like speakers under, say, $5000 a pair, can measure just as well as those that cost many times more. That got me thinking about what high-end speakers (like $50,000+) actually sound like?

To anyone who has downsized by price significantly, do you miss anything from the other speakers? My thinking is simply, perhaps more expensive speakers are bigger and can fill a bigger space with a 'bigger' sound....much like sound systems in an auditorium I guess.

I asked ChatGPT and here is part of its response: If you blindfolded someone and set up a well-measuring $3000 speaker next to a $50,000 one in a controlled room, they might struggle to justify the price gap by sound alone. High-end can be incredible, but measurement is a great equaliser — and ASR types will often point out that many of the best-sounding speakers are already affordable if you're focused on accuracy.

PS I know of the various aspects/features that make such speakers pricey, but haven't heard any yet, hence my curiosity. I'm keen to travel one day to an audio show and find out.

 

[Blumlein 88]

This recent thread is about a lot of the same ideas.

What's your vote for where the Law of Diminishing returns starts for tower speakers?

I realize this is an oft discussed topic, but I've never seen a poll so I'm curious. If you vote I'd love to hear what speaker you're thinking of. I've never listened to a pair myself, but based on my watching reviews online I think I need to find a pair of these to listen to as they would...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[NicC]

Thank you

 

[Chrispy]

ASR types is AI approved terminology, eh? I think you're oversimplifying speaker parameters let alone putting price in the mix without consideration of specific cabinetry let alone size, spl capabilities, etc.

 

[Penelinfi]

A more expensive speaker designed for good measurements will usually have more refinements, better SPL and distortion characteristics. A more sophisticated cabinet. Usually comes with good aesthetics but sometimes not.
It may not necessarily be a "night and day difference" compared to the optimal value type of speaker.
More often than not you'll hear differences due to FR difference and dispersion characteristics.
And room interaction due to driver placements etc

 

[DanielT]

From what I've gathered, it seems like speakers under, say, $5000 a pair, can measure just as well as those that cost many times more.

Or measure worse. You have no idea because we are talking about HiFi/High End. There is no correlation measurements - price.

I would never ever buy a speaker in the more expensive price category without seeing measurements. A total gamble in that case. The purchase can be more or less like throwing money down the drain. Check here, 93 pages with a lot of damn expensive crap:

Worst measuring loudspeaker?

Do we have a thread already if we have my apologies, Is this the worst, https://www.stereophile.com/content/klipsch-klipschorn-ak6-loudspeaker-measurements I have only heard a Klipsch loudspeaker on two occasions, Keith

audiosciencereview.com

Exceptions are such as Revel, KEF, Genelec, Neumann to name a few.

 

[Talisman]

Personally, I believe that very high quality speakers can reach up to 20,000 euros. Anything above that is mainly due to the "high end" audiophile culture. But it has no correlation with audio quality.
A well-designed, well-calibrated, well-positioned system can reproduce at a very high level for less than 5,000 euros.

 

[DanielT]

A comparison from the goofy world of HiFi/HighEnd speakers:

Raidho TD3.8. $103,000 (pair):

Raidho TD3.8 loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

Let's compare Raidho TD3.8 with these: Monitor Audio Silver 500 7G. $3200 (pair):

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - NRC Measurements: Monitor Audio Silver 500 7G Loudspeakers

www.soundstagenetwork.com

Monitor Audio Silver 500 7g

Nice measurements today from Soundstage hifi…someone get Amir the 100 7g https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2685:nrc-measurements-monitor-audio-silver-500-7g-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

audiosciencereview.com

Monitor Audio Silver 500 7G has low distortion, so you can tick that off as an advantage. I couldn't see any measurement of the Raidho TD3.8 distortion, so you don't know what you're getting/buying. Both speakers have about the same power handling as far as I can see. Monitor Audio Silver 500 7G has another advantage, higher sensitivity then Raidho TD3.8.

So the price-measurements-performance relationship/ratio based solely on these two speakers would be WORSE the more expensive. Now these were only two speakers but it is hardly a unique exception, as I said, check here:

Worst measuring loudspeaker?

Do we have a thread already if we have my apologies, Is this the worst, https://www.stereophile.com/content/klipsch-klipschorn-ak6-loudspeaker-measurements I have only heard a Klipsch loudspeaker on two occasions, Keith

audiosciencereview.com

 

[NicC]

Thanks for the insights, I appreciate you all for your time - and I'm learning. This hobby can sure be complex, and I'm barely beginning to wrap my head around the science (I can't get past the idea that music is only air pushed by those rapid-moving black things on a speaker ). It honestly boggles my mind - I was more into Humanities than the Sciences as if you didn't guess. A few months ago, I simply enjoyed listening to, and creating music, but spending time on ASR has me shaking my head in amazement. I'll look forward to reading the 93 page thread DanielT posted Lots more learning! Thanks guys.

Oh, Panelinfi, what you describe sounds to me just like two cars. One friend's Porsche, and another friend's Hyundai N-Line. Both good cars, and similar specs as far as speed and performance, but there's a difference riding inside. One paid a lot more than the other too!

 

[Jaxjax]

I've had 1 very large, dedicated music room in the past & could get to clean big venue spl in it . Good to great pro gear is big $ too . Ever been to a large venue with stunning spl that was clean ? I have many times over & it's extremely high $ gear ran fully DSP with some talented humans at the controls. One that needs the speakers/system to be part of the design decor/art & that alone drives a percentage of high end is different from one that is sonic driven only. I for one could dump wayyyy over 50k in a very very large room to get the scale & spl I would want but that would be filled with full on expensive pro gear in nothing but flat black. But to your point/// I doubt a pretty 500k pair from a known talented design team will sound bad in a proper room. If one can afford such a pair why not.. drop in a bucket for some.

 

[DanielT]

I'll look forward to reading the 93 page thread DanielT posted Lots more learning! Thanks guys.

But don't forget to also check out the tests here on ASR made on good speakers.

If you want speakers that reproduce the recorded material without altering it, or coloring it as we sometimes say, you can say that this is the most important thing in descending order is:
1. Smooth frequency response (many people find a little slope to be nice). That on-axis frequency response (the speaker is pointed towards you) and off-axis that follow each other.
2. Dispersion of the sound. In many ways a matter of taste.
3. Distortion and noise. When that becomes audible and annoying is individual. There are quite a few threads about this on ASR.

This is usually referred to as a starting point, if we talk about a good smooth FR:

There are some threads about that curve here on ASR. Here's one:

The Harman In-Room Target Curve - why is it represented as a thin line?

I typically see the Harman target curve represented as a thin line on an amplitude vs. freq chart, as if the goal were to achieve that target precisely. But looking at a review article written by Toole entitled "The Measurement and Calibration of Sound Reproducing Systems" (JAES...

audiosciencereview.com

Anyone can test that a bumpy frequency curve sounds weird. Just pick up a free EQ app and turn the controls up and down. A big frequency roller coaster (especially in the long run) is usually not liked by most people.

 

[GXAlan]

Speakers have to consider

Size
Aesthetics
Peak SPL
Distortion
Frequency Response
Phase linearity
Dispersion
Linearity
Resonances

Some really flat speakers may have a lot of compression (lack of linearity) as you increase SPLs while other not-that-flat speakers have excellent linearity where the frequency response is unchanged regardless of the SPL.

Price allows you to prioritize more of these, but individual speakers may not prioritize these in the way you want. Some very beautiful and well crafted speakers are not flat. Some very flat speakers are not beautiful.

Even when we say we prioritize sound quality, you have to think about your specific listening distance and SPL. No one wants to have hearing damage, but as your listening distance increases, it’s increasingly hard to deliver clean sound.

 

[DanielT]

I think I see a trend here at ASR that compression and SPL are increasingly being highlighted as important factors. Rightly so, since everyone wants speakers that deliver a clean sound.

@NicC , you should think about that and consider that. What is your normal listening volume and how often and for how long do you want and can (consideration for neighbors?) play at a higher volume? High SPL capable speakers with a reasonably low level of distortion usually cost a fair amount. Is it worth X amount of more $ to be able to play loud X amount of time?

 

[HalSF]

Hi everyone,

In my downtime, I really enjoy reading through threads on ASR. I find the discussions fascinating and often way over my head. Yesterday, I was reading about speaker measurements and came across a comment that basically said: if a speaker measures well, it will sound good.

From what I've gathered, it seems like speakers under, say, $5000 a pair, can measure just as well as those that cost many times more. That got me thinking about what high-end speakers (like $50,000+) actually sound like?

To anyone who has downsized by price significantly, do you miss anything from the other speakers? My thinking is simply, perhaps more expensive speakers are bigger and can fill a bigger space with a 'bigger' sound....much like sound systems in an auditorium I guess.

I asked ChatGPT and here is part of its response: If you blindfolded someone and set up a well-measuring $3000 speaker next to a $50,000 one in a controlled room, they might struggle to justify the price gap by sound alone. High-end can be incredible, but measurement is a great equaliser — and ASR types will often point out that many of the best-sounding speakers are already affordable if you're focused on accuracy.

PS I know of the various aspects/features that make such speakers pricey, but haven't heard any yet, hence my curiosity. I'm keen to travel one day to an audio show and find out.

Just want to respectfully mention that as soon as an OP like this veers into ChatGPT content and treats it as valid, authoritative info, I’m out.

 

[NicC]

I definitely understand HalSF's comment. I teach, and we've been seeing students rely on AI at disturbing levels. I have to instruct them on its responsible use. In my case with sound, it's a starting point. I have to ask 'it' basic information, so I can frame questions on ASR without wasting TOO much of people's time. It really isn't easy to look at graphs and data and acronyms and come away with understanding. Whether the sound info is valid or authorative, I don't know, hence coming to the experts It's a shame he's out. I treat the forum like I'm at a party with you guys, with a drink in hand. I walk up, introduce myself, and start a conversation. I question, I wonder, I admire the experience and intelligence, then I go home and wonder some more. It is...truly fascinating!

[For reference: A friend told me to come to ASR when I asked him about purchasing speakers a few months ago. Because of ASR, I ordered a pair of Ascend ELX towers. I know they will sound good, I really want to understand why, hence this thread and my 'dumb' questions. I learned that the crossover is really important to deliver the right frequencies to the right drivers for better separation - now that is a bit of wizardry right there!]]

 

[JustJones]

No idea if you've watched this, it's about 1 hour long.

Thread 'Understanding Speaker Measurements (Video)' https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...derstanding-speaker-measurements-video.44101/

 

[Heinrich]

Hi everyone,

In my downtime, I really enjoy reading ...

I asked ChatGPT and here is part of its response: If you blindfolded someone and set up a well-measuring $3000 speaker next to a $50,000 one in a controlled room, they might struggle to justify the price gap by sound alone. High-end can be incredible, but measurement is a great equaliser — and ASR types will often point out that many of the best-sounding speakers are already affordable if you're focused on accuracy.

ASR types, well, that defines normal? Your remark has a different spin than that on the other thread. I bough my speakers "blind", because concept, build and result are top-notch, objectively. Added a DIY sub as otherwise I would have needed a stand.

The system is stunning. It beats everything I've experienced before. Thing is, I do not crave for more, and I hardly would accept less, now that I got used to that perfection. Grand total, exploiting a sell-out, was around 1300Euros plus a little bit of amplification.

The phenomenon of "High End" is over. That's a happy end.

 

[Bjorn]

Bigger drivers, bigger cabinets, better bracing, less diffraction that makes cabinets more complex etc. do all bring up the cost. There's also more time and design that goes into quality. The better drivers generally costs more as well, though price here doesn't necessarily follow quality

So there's certainly a correlation between quality and price. However, a price alone doesn't guarantee a good design. Often in high-end audio high price is a means to fool customers.

But you not going to get very high quality in low price rangers either for the mentioned reasons in the first paragraph.

 

[NicC]

I've read (and thought about) all the posts and thank the members for the info. 1300Euros Heinrich! That's awesome you love the system so much. The 'best' system I have heard was at a hifi shop near me where I heard the Golden Ears Triton 1 speakers ($10k at the time) with a Devialet(?) amp that the salesman said cost $30 000. I bluetoothed my phone, and I thought I was at a Bon Jovi concert That was the moment I found out there is more to music-listening than my system at home was offering. I'm glad to have found ASR and learning that to have quality music, you don't need anywhere near $40k!

I wonder in the music store, what percentage of the 'quality' was speakers vs amp???

 

[amirm]

I wonder in the music store, what percentage of the 'quality' was speakers vs amp???

Almost all of it was the speaker (plus room). But also what content was played.