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Speaker lamentations - measurements vs price vs sound

First, high SPL, which many car bass drivers have. We've all heard that, cars with lots of/large bass woffers that pump bass.

I did mean neither sheer SPL nor low distortion which both surely can be achieved by some affordable speakers even at lower frequencies. It is more about the groove, kicking beats, tight, precise bass, coherent timing over the whole lower band, if that makes sense. Such I have mostly experienced with bigger active, non-vented speaker concepts which are inevitably more expensive than $5k.

Is this characteristic common to all speakers above a certain price point?

Surely not. It is very rarely found in passive speakers or vented designs, if ever.

Is it due to design choices that are exclusive to projects over $10,000?

Would say: yes, as I have made the experience that fully active, closed-box concepts (or alike) with vast diaphragm area and lots of amplifier power are the common way to achieve this. And all of this inevitably costs more than 10 Grand.

Can they be found in some way in the measurements in a distinctive way compared to less expensive speakers?

Probably yes, but you have to take room interaction (and correction thereof) into account and do in-room measurements of things like group delay, waterfall plot and RT60 below 150Hz. Not really common to do that.
 
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To paraphrase you" The phenomenon of "High End" is over; however , that's is not yet the end for me. I can hear, at times some of the limitations of my speakers. I also know (more or less :)) where I will go from there and it will be acquired "blind", solely based on measurements.

Peace.
Thanks, sajonara. The rush of people for quality HiFi, as I saw it in the 70s has slowed down to a stasis. Today we want surround, or just one portable Bluetooth brick as to point at the extremes. As I see it, there is little in between.

There are two main things I miss which I regularly enjoy in high end speakers: having a really punchy, kicking yet precise beat coming from the lower bass ...
After designing a mini speaker with still full bandwidth down to 30Hz, I suspect it is the extension. With ported designs there is a cut-off just below the tuning frequency. In modern bookshelf speakers the tuning is chosen at 50Hz or even higher (exceptions: KEF, Revel). In modern music I found some content below 40Hz, in like a third of all (for me) relevant recordings. That doesn't fit. The higher than needed tuning leads to specific distortion, wind noises from the port etc.
 
After designing a mini speaker with still full bandwidth down to 30Hz, I suspect it is the extension.

I am quite sure this is not the core issue. There are a lot of speakers offering sufficient diaphragm area, Xmax and cabinet volume yet sounding boomy, bloated, slow, imprecise or incoherently timed in the bass area. Of course, behavior of the room contributes significantly to all of this, but even in a room close to perfection you notice the difference far from the physical limits of a speaker or its port.

With ported designs there is a cut-off just below the tuning frequency. In modern bookshelf speakers the tuning is chosen at 50Hz or even higher (exceptions: KEF, Revel).

I agree that choosing a Helmholtz resonator frequency of 50Hz or higher will make the issue I am addressing more audible with an increased number of recordings. But no reasonable designer aiming for tight, precise bass, would do this, and with modern bass drivers it is not really necessary. Choosing a lower port resonance below ´Bullock´s gold standard´, like in the example you are mentioning, seemingly does alter the character of the bass but is no guarantee for tight bass either, in some cases rather the opposite.

My estimation is that the bass below 50Hz is not the main driver of ´slow, lame´ bass impulses and beats, as long as it is not overly delayed/prone to resonance. It is more about how a bass beat is in subjective conjunction with its harmonics one or two octaves higher, if that makes sense. But this is just a theory.
 
I am quite sure this is not the core issue. There are a lot of speakers offering sufficient diaphragm area, Xmax and cabinet volume yet sounding boomy, bloated, slow, imprecise or incoherently timed in the bass area. Of course, behavior of the room contributes significantly to all of this, but even in a room close to perfection you notice the difference far from the physical limits of a speaker or its port.
It was about extension, e/g down to 30Hz or even lower.

But no reasonable designer ...
LoL ;-)
 
I did mean neither sheer SPL nor low distortion which both surely can be achieved by some affordable speakers even at lower frequencies. It is more about the groove, kicking beats, tight, precise bass, coherent timing over the whole lower band, if that makes sense. Such I have mostly experienced with bigger active, non-vented speaker concepts which are inevitably more expensive than $5k.
A really good speaker should of course measure really well on all the test parameters used in speaker measurements.

You don't seem to like vented speakers and that's okay because bass port resonances can be a nuisance. That is evident in many speaker tests that Amir performs. But it is the whole that you should consider. I mean what does it matter if you have really few/low resonances in a speaker. So good that the resonance-free can be considered "High End" when you also have 8% (yes you read that right) distortion at 4 kHz? It can't even be considered a Hifi speaker with such a terrible distortion result. :oops:
I am referring to these GR Research NX-Bravo speakers that Erin just tested:
Screenshot_2025-04-09_121301.jpgScreenshot_2025-04-09_121342.jpgScreenshot_2025-04-09_121433.jpg

In terms of what is considered important, descending scale see #11.

Edit:
Here are some links to what you are addressing. Or what you are touching on:


 
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So good that the resonance-free can be considered "High End" when you also have 8% (yes you read that right) distortion at 4 kHz? It can't even be considered a Hifi speaker with such a terrible distortion result

From lab perspective certainly not, and I do not mean to defend the speaker designer.

On the other hand, elevated harmonic distortion in a very narrow frequency band our ear is most sensitive to, is not necessarily leading to audible distortion. It might sound counterintuitive, but if you have the possibility to measure the true narrowly bandwidth-limited SPL with music material, cranking up the volume until you reach 86dB in such a narrow band... well, you will notice that the overall SPL is actually pretty high, if not at a level bringing other frequency bands like upper bass to their limits. For most of music, there is not much of energy between 3.6 and 4.3K Hertz (heavy metal and big bands aside), so a lot of people might not ever reach that point of distortion becoming audible. Particularly not if the magnetostatic driver is going into saturation suddenly.
 
These things are discussed in other recent threads as well. But tight/punchy bass isn't below 30hz, I'd say it's more around the 50-200hz range. But it can certainly be overpowered/masked by peaks in the deeper bass.

Bass reflex can sound tight if properly designed.

Wide / large soundstage is a complicated subject, we have 45 pages on the subject here :)
 
From lab perspective certainly not, and I do not mean to defend the speaker designer.

On the other hand, elevated harmonic distortion in a very narrow frequency band our ear is most sensitive to, is not necessarily leading to audible distortion. It might sound counterintuitive, but if you have the possibility to measure the true narrowly bandwidth-limited SPL with music material, cranking up the volume until you reach 86dB in such a narrow band... well, you will notice that the overall SPL is actually pretty high, if not at a level bringing other frequency bands like upper bass to their limits. For most of music, there is not much of energy between 3.6 and 4.3K Hertz (heavy metal and big bands aside), so a lot of people might not ever reach that point of distortion becoming audible. Particularly not if the magnetostatic driver is going into saturation suddenly.
A dear topic on ASR, when and under what conditions (type of music for example) distortion becomes audible. Then you can mix in individual differences and how distortion is experienced. People have different sensitivity to distortion. From another forum:

Anyone who has embraced the use of truly low-distortion speakers knows what this means - going from around 0.3-0.5% THD in the midrange and treble to around 0.05-0.1% THD clearly reduces a grittiness that you don't always be aware of before the switch. A warning should be issued here, as there is no going back after hearing what it should sound like.

It is also interesting that deliberately rather "dirty" popular music recordings also sound cleaner, or perhaps rather more distinct, even though the raw sound even increases, i.e. that the listener hears exactly the distortion that was intended. The difference can sometimes be strikingly large even here, which probably surprises many


For my part. There is no way on the world map that I would buy speakers that have 8% distortion, at 86 dB, at 4 kHz. I simply do not consider it to be even capable Hifi speakers then.

Edit:
You may have seen these threads? If so, for others who are curious. Here you can test yourself: :)



 
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It can cost a bit to have both. By that I mean.First, high SPL, which many car bass drivers have. We've all heard that, cars with lots of/large bass woffers that pump bass. Second, "nice" bass with low distortion, which my Peerless SLS 10 drivers have BUT low power handling, only 70 Watt RMS. I live in an apartment and can't play that loud so they're ok for me (on the borderline, even though I have four of them). Low distortion + high power handling/SPL bass + good FR, however, can cost a pretty penny. Really high SPL with that combination, you need to open your big wallet.:)
"Expensive". "cheap" are subjective terms as such depends on the individual psychology and financial wherewithal's. It happens however that , thanks to Science again, getting high quality bass in a large room is attainable for what many would consider as "sane" prices.

To frame the discussion. let consider what many would call a large listening room 12 x 8 x 4 meters (LxWxH) . Let us assume that the audiophile possessing this room has a modicum of technical acumen. They/She/He, can wield Umik-1 or equivalent, MSO and REW and is willing to use multiple subwoofers. I would surmise that for less than $10,000 , a pricey sum for most here I would add, the audiophile would be able to go smooth and flat from 10 to 20 Hz at >110 dB at the MLP... I Surmise that speakers such KefR7 or R1, or Revel F 206 helped by adequate subwoofers could be quite loud in such large rooms ..... No need for High End Audio (HEA) brutally expensive speakers.
If the audiophile choose the path of Studio Monitors, e.g things like JBL M2 or the passive 4367, Neumann KH-420 or Genelec 1200 Monitors + suitable Subwoofers and software ... this can stay below $40K... Remember we were talking about High End things where $25K is entry level 2-way bookshelves , "female voices" specialists-speakers , not capable of sustained high SPL at 2 meters ...
Similar high performances path can be achieved with Revel , Kef and similar Science-based upper level products Salon 2, F328 Be , Blade 1 or 2 .. etc properly integrated with subwoofers from SVS, Rythmik and the likes, all that for less than many entry level High End speakers with dubious objective, performance.

Peace.
 
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"Expensive". "cheap" are subjective terms as such depends on the individual psychology and financial wherewithal's. It happens however that , thanks to Science again, getting high quality bass in a large room is attainable for what many would consider as "sane" prices.
Yep, it's subjective. Also, what was considered cheap for one person today may be considered expensive tomorrow. This could be due to, for example:


We in the EU can get cheaper electronics from China, if they try to dump our market with their goods. That may sound nice but also causes other problems. Let's skip that discussion in this thread. It can be done in the thread I linked to above.

Subjective, since I didn't quantify it, is also what I said about really high SPL, low distortion and good FR.
To frame the discussion. let consider what many would call a large listening room 12 x 8 x 4 meters (LxWxH) . Let us assume that the audiophile possessing this room has a modicum of technical acumen. They/She/He, can wield Umik-1 or equivalent, MSO and REW and is willing to use multiple subwoofers. I would surmise that for less than $10,000 , a pricey sum for most here I would add, the audiophile would be able to go smooth and flat from 10 to 20 Hz at >110 dB at the MLP... I Surmise that speakers such KefR7 or R1, or Revel F 206 helped by adequate subwoofers could be quite loud in such large rooms ..... No need for High End Audio (HEA) brutally expensive speakers.
If the audiophile choose the path of Studio Monitors, e.g things like JBL M2 or the passive 4367, Neumann KH-420 or Genelec 1200 Monitors + suitable Subwoofers and software ... this can stay below $40K... Remember we were talking about High End things where $25K is entry level 2-way bookshelves , "female voices" specialists-speakers , not capable of sustained high SPL at 2 meters ...
Similar high performances path can be achieved with Revel , Kef and similar Science-based upper level products Salon 2, F328 Be , Blade 1 or 2 .. etc properly integrated with subwoofers from SVS, Rythmik and the likes, all that for less than many entry level High End speakers with dubious objective, performance.

Peace.
Sounds like reasonable thoughts. :)
 
The price of loudspeakers is not entirely arbitrary. The rule of thumb is that the bill of materials is around 15% of the total cost of the speaker. So, if the loudspeaker has expensive well measuring drivers (beryllium tweeters, Purifi mid-woofers), the whole thing will cost more.

Great measuring drivers does not necessarily mean a great speaker. On the other hand, you’re not making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear (for an old-time colloquialism). Since this is ASR, I think you must concede that better measuring is better. Whether that’s worth it to you is discussed in another thread.
 
Hi everyone,

In my downtime, I really enjoy reading through threads on ASR. I find the discussions fascinating and often way over my head. Yesterday, I was reading about speaker measurements and came across a comment that basically said: if a speaker measures well, it will sound good.

From what I've gathered, it seems like speakers under, say, $5000 a pair, can measure just as well as those that cost many times more. That got me thinking about what high-end speakers (like $50,000+) actually sound like?

To anyone who has downsized by price significantly, do you miss anything from the other speakers? My thinking is simply, perhaps more expensive speakers are bigger and can fill a bigger space with a 'bigger' sound....much like sound systems in an auditorium I guess.

I asked ChatGPT and here is part of its response: If you blindfolded someone and set up a well-measuring $3000 speaker next to a $50,000 one in a controlled room, they might struggle to justify the price gap by sound alone. High-end can be incredible, but measurement is a great equaliser — and ASR types will often point out that many of the best-sounding speakers are already affordable if you're focused on accuracy.

PS I know of the various aspects/features that make such speakers pricey, but haven't heard any yet, hence my curiosity. I'm keen to travel one day to an audio show and find out.
I went from Spendor A5R(paid 2200ish) to Kef LS50 (paid 1000) in 2016ish. Despite the difference in price and size, the Kef's did everything subjectively better. Even bass, if you can believe that. It is my humble opinion a respectably engineered speaker compared to another respectably engineered speaker with the similar size drivers and box would be tough to distinguish in a blind test even when comparing 1000 to $10000 speakers.
I do love the Spendors though....I sold them to a vietnam veteran from utica. He drove to rochester in a snow storm he wanted them so bad. He stayed for several hours and we drank coffee and listened to music till the snow slowed. Great night. Great guy. He loved the speakers for the cheap price I sold them for. I did not.
 
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