Response to PS Audio on P12 PowerPlant Measurements (Video)

[don'ttrustauthority]

Audiophile (judging by tubes in his gear) says he doesn't hear PSAudio power conditioner improve the sound in his MacIntosh amplifier.

 

[pkane]

Can you do that with any of their new ones though.

I doubt it.

 

[antcollinet]

Schiit Audio developed several new amplifiers after realizing how much demand there was for headphone amplifiers that measure as the state of the art (and dramatically improved their Modi dac), and I think thanks to Amir they are like twenty more times the sales they had before Amir. PSAudio should take a similar tact and stop fighting the trends, go with the measurements.

They can't. Because then they'd have to admit their power plant does nothing for audio.

 

[HifMAn]

Amir's measurement definitely helped me choose the Modi 3+ and not spend more for the multibit.
I think measurements are a key component in removing subjective views.

As there goes the saying: "you can't improve what you can't measure".

You are wrong! Are you sure you can measure everything that affects sound? Why devices with the same measurements playing differently?

 

[Doodski]

You are wrong! Are you sure you can measure everything that affects sound? Why devices with the same measurements playing differently?

What devices measure the same?

 

[solderdude]

Are you sure you can measure everything that affects sound?

In electronics ... yes.

 

[Berlyassocial]

After all the fuss going about the powerplant videos and seeing Paul squirming to defend the ASR findings, i was watching their first FR30 delivery video expecting to enjoy some cringe moments from paul.

But there was reason for optimism in that video.
Unlike the ask Paul videos this one is a pleasure to watch.

Chris the designer is very knowledgeable about room interactions and he asserts the influence of reflections in a very intuitive way.

You also see Chris showing skepticism in his tone to Paul’s crude recommendations of moving this and that because he already knows whats gonna be the result. But he does it anyway to not offend the boss and thats okay. We all are passive to some level to our bosses.

Owner of the speakers also has a fair knowledge base on how room interacts with the speakers. But he has his own share of myths too about silver cables and yada yada. But thats okay at-least he takes the effort to learn the science behind things too and things that actually matter.

Whether the price tag be justified is debatable. But I feel optimistic that these speakers are gonna sound and measure well because we can see the designer has covered a-lot of real life complications which happens in a room and developed technology to cater for those issues in the design.

The biggest wait is for Amir to measure those speakers some day.

 

[FrantzM]

You are wrong! Are you sure you can measure everything that affects sound? Why devices with the same measurements playing differently?

Welcome to ASR!
Here we come with facts to back up our assertions. Can you come with proofs to back up the claim I took the liberty to bold? For the rest of your post, if you stay here, you will soon learn a lot and your system will sound better, and that will be obtained trough measurements, by Science.

Peace

 

[antcollinet]

You are wrong! Are you sure you can measure everything that affects sound? Why devices with the same measurements playing differently?

Audio signals are amongst the simplest of physical phenomena to measure. There is only amplitude, frequency and phase. And we have measurement equipment able to measure those to a sensitivity way beyond that of our ears.

You can measure everything from a DAC or AMP that impacts the sound coming from the speakers. And therefore if there is a difference between the sound waves created by two different devices - reaching the subjects ear.

We can't (easily) measure how a subjects brain responds to those signals reaching the ear. This is why we have blind testing - needed in order to remove the impact of subjective impressions. If you think you are hearing diffferences between two devices that both measure as transparent, then you are exceptionally unlikely to be able to be able to demonstrate hearing a difference when doing so in a controlled blind test.

If you are genuinely interested in understanding these things (Rather then burying your head in the sand and saying "you are wrong") - especially how your own brain will make you think you hear things that are not there in the sound waves, then start by watching this video.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Why devices with the same measurements playing differently?

Because you are sitting there staring at them while they are playing and your brain likes the way one of them looks more than the other or because your brain knows one of them is three times as expensive as the other and something that's more expensive has to sound better than something that's less expensive or because you just watched a glowing review of one of the devices by your favorite audiophile youtuber who said it sounds better than anything he's ever heard before and lo and behold it does! (you know, until next week's review says the same thing about something else of course)

 

[Berlyassocial]

I

You are wrong! Are you sure you can measure everything that affects sound? Why devices with the same measurements playing differently?

Its the expectation caused by the price difference and the jargon said by reviewers.

I used to be a person who exclusively listened to the biggest sized lossless files I could find and buy. Some of the files was even close to 300 mb per track. And i used to convert them to 320kbps mp3 to make sure i did hear the difference in formats.

I would compare the mp3 to the lossless parent file by scanning the spectrum seeing those data north of 20khz in the lossless file and then listen to the lossless and sure those details above the 20khz made a night and day difference.

One day i was listening to one of the master tracks contemplating the details and finesse with all those details above 20khz. I thought how would it compare to the mp3 and went to change the track in foobar. Foobar was hiding a nasty surprise for me. The track i was listening all this time was one of the mp3 files I converted myself. I had forgot to remove it from the playlist.

It caused a lot of embarrassment to my self esteem even though i was alone. But then something clicked in my brain asking myself what had actually happen.

Offcourse the lossless has more data but in my room amidst all the comb filtering I couldn’t identify those differences if I didn’t know what type of file was playing.

So if this is the realistic scenario for cases with actual objective proof then imagine what all our brain might be making up when we install silver lined cables, spikes, and power conditioners.

Now the lossless files rest in peace in a dusty hard drive and im streaming Spotify premium.

 

[Killingbeans]

Why devices with the same measurements playing differently?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Cognitive_bias_codex_en.svg

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

So if this is the realistic scenario for cases with actual objective proof then imagine what all our brain might be making up when we install silver lined cables, spikes, and power conditioners.

Yeah that's pretty much what it comes down to for me. There's all sorts of real world objective evidence that we can't hear differences between things that actually have substantial measurable differences but oh sure there's "worlds" of notable audible difference between cables and dacs and amps that measure essentially exactly the same. It's like people thinking they can taste the difference between strawberries grown on fields a mile apart when all the actual real, provable evidence indicates they can't even taste the difference between strawberries and apples.

 

[Berlyassocial]

. It's like people thinking they can taste the difference between strawberries grown on fields a mile apart when all the actual real, provable evidence indicates they can't even taste the difference between strawberries and apples.

You conveyed the idea in a single sentence.

Why couldnt you write it a bit earlier.

could have spared me from writing a lengthy essay

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

You conveyed the idea in a single sentence.

Why couldnt you write it a bit earlier.

could have spared me from writing a lengthy essay

lol. T'was a fine essay.

 

[SimpleTheater]

@amirm You replied to a person commenting on your video that PS Audio has admitted this isn’t an AC Regenerator. Do you have a screenshot or link to that post of theirs?

 

[TheBatsEar]

@amirm You replied to a person commenting on your video that PS Audio has admitted this isn’t an AC Regenerator. Do you have a screenshot or link to that post of theirs?

Oh my, someone wants his money back!

 

[AudioSceptic]

Why not show a blind listening test so people know this is not a waste of money? PSAudio can end this in a heartbeat with one short video. Seriously you act like this huge company is going to care what a few people on the internet say. Very little of the audio community knows about Amir's humble site here.

Yes, indeed, but "huge company"? They might be big by boutique standards but they are no Sony, Panasonic, etc., are they?

 

[Ricardus]

You are wrong! Are you sure you can measure everything that affects sound?

Yes. But if you know of some electrical properties the entire world is unaware of, please show us the scholarly paper you submitted to the AES and educational community.

Why devices with the same measurements playing differently?

Citation needed. Please show double blind listening tests that verify this.

These arguments are used in every HiFi group I've ever been in. They are the lore and mythology of "audiophiles."

But unforunately they can't back it up, and it means the person saying it believes in magic. It's nonsense.

 

[SimpleTheater]

@amirm You replied to a person commenting on your video that PS Audio has admitted this isn’t an AC Regenerator. Do you have a screenshot or link to that post of theirs?

Found it.