PS Audio M700 Monoblock Amplifier Review

[cistercian]

My best guess is that Paul knows his customer base very well. They like the "PS Sound" that his products produce, and/or they cannot tell the sonic difference among audio gear and are heavily influenced by marketing and brand image. For them measurements play no role when they purchase audio gear.
If he believes that PS Audio can sustain an acceptable profit by catering to this customer base, there is no financial incentive to change the way PS Audio develops products. From the perspective of a CEO paying attention to his bottom line, it makes sense to me.

That seems like a reasonable take to me. I feel bad for them though.

 

[Blumlein 88]

It is. It is also your hypothesis. Go develop it, run the test, provide the data and methodology, and everyone will comment and point out what factors may or may not be right. It is called peer review.

This is far different than what you have done, which is make a hypothesis and then tell someone to test it for you. Amir (nor is anyone here) is not your lapdog.

As far as your hypothetical discussion between counsel and the bench, I will provide you the correct response from the bench: Sustained, but for relevancy. MOVE ALONG COUNSEL.

He mentioned early on and linked to a DIY audio forum thread on the test he was proposing. Plenty of measurements done there. If you looked at it there is no need for him to do some measures here all over again. He could provide a few if he wished. I too am a bit mystified as to the response of what he has brought up. Seems straightforward as a different take on how much dynamic range we really need. Would have thought it a fertile topic for some back and forth respectful discussion. Not the wagons drawn into a circle showdown atmosphere it has become. I didn't see it as disrespectful, controversial or in another manner trying to cause discord.

Then again this is one of a few threads that have gone this way recently and I'm at a loss to see why.

 

[Blumlein 88]

My best guess is that Paul knows his customer base very well. They like the "PS Sound" that his products produce, and/or they cannot tell the sonic difference among audio gear and are heavily influenced by marketing and brand image. For them measurements play no role when they purchase audio gear.
If he believes that PS Audio can sustain an acceptable profit by catering to this customer base, there is no financial incentive to change the way PS Audio develops products. From the perspective of a CEO paying attention to his bottom line, it makes sense to me.

Yes, this fits. A relatively clean gain cell with no feedback (marketing has told you this is good), and relatively modest domination by 2nd and 3rd harmonics distortion (also marketed as sounding good) and you are feeding your companies signature sound into a clean device to give a power amp that PS Audio sound. I actually doubt the low levels of distortion are audible with music. But the customers sold on the hype will no doubt hear how clear it is, and credit the no feedback gain cell architecture.

 

[Bruce Morgen]

Your assessment seems fair to me.

I don't think McGowan actually designs amps (or any other sort of electronics) these days. He has both an engineering staff on premises and apparently a posh enough budget to hire outside consultants like (the remarkably still alive!) Bascom King and that poor former programmer sod who came up with those awful and awfully expensive FPGA-programmable "DirectStream" (direct through a transformer, of all things) DACs. Then there's that young in-house "designer" who came up with a phono preamp that has over 700 discrete components -- I swear, you can't make these "high-end" stories up! I have liked what his recently hired speaker specialist has had to say -- so far, he seems like the only PS Audio guy with his head screwed on straight. Everyone else there I've encountered seems to have theirs on cross-threaded to one extent or another.

 

[GaryMnz]

He mentioned early on and linked to a DIY audio forum thread on the test he was proposing. Plenty of measurements done there. If you looked at it there is no need for him to do some measures here all over again. He could provide a few if he wished. I too am a bit mystified as to the response of what he has brought up. Seems straightforward as a different take on how much dynamic range we really need. Would have thought it a fertile topic for some back and forth respectful discussion. Not the wagons drawn into a circle showdown atmosphere it has become. I didn't see it as disrespectful, controversial or in another manner trying to cause discord.

Then again this is one of a few threads that have gone this way recently and I'm at a loss to see why.

Thank you. I appreciate your reply.

 

[cistercian]

I have noted on other sites a tendency towards derision directed towards measurements voiced by a significant
number of enthusiasts. I think this stems from a perceived slight against their preferred equipment or sound signature.
I note these same people also tend to embrace the "power cord" and other odd quackery that is supposedly essential
for them to enjoy their systems to the fullest. They tend to say that those who embrace measurements "don't understand"
or that we blindly worship Amir and other weird statements.
For that crowd ignorance is bliss and also expensive. I genuinely feel bad for them.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I have noted on other sites a tendency towards derision directed towards measurements voiced by a significant
number of enthusiasts. I think this stems from a perceived slight against their preferred equipment or sound signature.
I note these same people also tend to embrace the "power cord" and other odd quackery that is supposedly essential
for them to enjoy their systems to the fullest. They tend to say that those who embrace measurements "don't understand"
or that we blindly worship Amir and other weird statements.
For that crowd ignorance is bliss and also expensive. I genuinely feel bad for them.

non sequitur post award.

 

[cistercian]

non sequitur post award.

It follows logically when discussing adding color or distortion to an amp and charging an outrageous price for it.
The fans buy the hype and the measurements don't matter...in fact, the measurements must be wrong.

 

[Thomas savage]

Can't see anything wrong with @GaryMnz question, maybe a new thread would be good .

It's a interesting topic.

Edit , I see this moved on and created a huge amount of off topic discussion. I will endeavour to move it all out if someone gives me post numbers .

 

[Bruce Morgen]

Outlaw monoblocks....done.

I think Mr. PS Audio has been pretty fortunate given the favorable reviews that have been bestowed upon him in past years. His resume certainly isn't up to snuff for a person who is supposedly engineering amplifiers:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-mcgowan-73101611/

Not to stand up for McGowan, who AFAICT is essentially a sales and marketing guy, but a couple of the very best technical minds I ever had the privilege of working with never even finished high school.

 

[win]

I have noted on other sites a tendency towards derision directed towards measurements voiced by a significant
number of enthusiasts. I think this stems from a perceived slight against their preferred equipment or sound signature.
I note these same people also tend to embrace the "power cord" and other odd quackery that is supposedly essential
for them to enjoy their systems to the fullest. They tend to say that those who embrace measurements "don't understand"
or that we blindly worship Amir and other weird statements.
For that crowd ignorance is bliss and also expensive. I genuinely feel bad for them.

We call it cognitive dissonance, for short.

 

[Vasr]

Not to stand up for McGowan, who AFAICT is essentially a sales and marketing guy, but a couple of the very best technical minds I ever had the privilege of working with never even finished high school.

Great marketing skills with a ****** product are almost always more successful than great engineering with poor marketing skills. Great engineers (and probably most in this forum) almost always think the problem isn't with them.

 

[EdW]

The heck is "normal domestic levels?" You have a study on that? Everyone listens at a different level. It is not your job to mandate a limit to that. And people have different size spaces. Ours is massive with huge volume so requires a lot of power.

Yes, you can listen to elevator music at 1 watt. So?

The papers I referenced you to shows that live concerts and standard seating location can have peaks of 120 dB+.

View attachment 77244

Are you going to tell me I am not allowed to replicate that in my home?

These are truly huge SPLs even if just momentary. I’m sure many of us with large floorstanding speakers have gone significantly over 110dB in moments of enthusiasm but 125dB is pretty insane! I suspect you’re right though I’ve been to one or two concerts (unamplified) with 20+ trumpets, and a similar number of trombones, clarinets etc and on several occasions my ears were ringing.
Apropos nothing at all do you own an audiology business.

 

[Chilli]

HI GaryMnz. My guess is this would be much less abrasive if it were around a few drinks or tea and biscuits in person.
I did your test back in audioenz some years back, with the file you provided, and it was enlightening. I think I had an integrated designed by you and it worked flawlessly for the 20 years that I had it. And like most who sell it, miss it.
Thanks to Blumlein and Thomas (And of course Amir) for your moderate patience.
Please stick around Gary, if you can.

 

[GaryMnz]

HI GaryMnz. My guess is this would be much less abrasive if it were around a few drinks or tea and biscuits in person.
I did your test back in audioenz some years back, with the file you provided, and it was enlightening. I think I had an integrated designed by you and it worked flawlessly for the 20 years that I had it. And like most who sell it, miss it.
Thanks to Blumlein and Thomas (And of course Amir) for your moderate patience.
Please stick around Gary, if you can.

Hi Chilli,

Thanks for your comment, and yeah, sitting around with a beer would be the right way to do it.

I find the measurements in this forum interesting. I'm usually just an observer, and I'll hang around.

As you've noted the power topic is one that has interested me for a long time.

Cheers...

 

[F1308]

We like to see dynamic range over 140db which I have achieved. So what?

Does it say anything about what's audible and what's essential? Where in the world did he said it's the required minimum? He basically said: Ideally, 96dB is better but it's a none issue. Do you not understand English now?

Might be only ideal and not necessary, but I see again this table....

1. 
   >116dB Superior. Performance exceeds human hearing threshold.
2. █ 115dB-106dB Excellent. Performance is capable of higher resolution output.
3. █ 105dB-96dB Proper. Performance fully covers 16-bit (CD) resolution.
4. █ 95dB-86dB Mediocre. Performance does not meet 16-bit (CD) resolution.
5. █ <85dB Low. Avoid if you take any interest in audio performance.

...and as you can see, not achieving 96 dB is something to be avoided, not something to be happy with because the nothing will happen.

So, my previous question ramains still unanswered so far...

What are the differences between hearing my CDs through AHB2 [113 SINAD], and Behringer A800 [SINAD 77]....please?

 

[Killingbeans]

What are the differences between hearing my CDs through AHB2 [113 SINAD], and Behringer A800 [SINAD 77]....please?

Probably that the Behringer gives you a VU-meter (?) to look at while you listen.

 

[PeteL]

Oh please. Do read the methodology before you respond.

two things in response:

1/ No I haven't based my argument on this approach. I am actively involved in the industry as a manufacturer and engineer. I have taken measurements as I mentioned, at audio shows (CES etc), in dealers showrooms, and in domestic situations, all using either a portable oscilloscope or a self designed peak voltage detector. Lots of data over 20 years.

2/ Pano's approach does not need to take into account crest factor etc because he sets the tone level relative to digital clipping. That means that the clip level of the system source is defined and therefore the possible peak before clipping is known.

Think it through better or read it thoroughly.

You can call it what you want, but if you have peaks 20 dB above the rms level, you'll have spikes of power 100X what it is used continuously. when he sets the tone "relative to digital clipping" this tone should reflect that, if not Pano's didn't set the tone properly. Also if you see a speaker that gives a sensitivity of say 90 dB spl 1W 1m it doesn't mean you use only 1W continuously, obviously,it is for 1k, for a wideband signal, it is more, speakers doesn't have even impedance across the band, and most people obviously listen at more than a meter. Regardless on how you choose to do the maths, a 100W amp cannot give you a fairly dynamic recording unclipped/uncompressed/unlimited if you like to listen to 80+ dB SPL or so.

 

[pjug]

Regardless on how you choose to do the maths, a 100W amp cannot give you a fairly dynamic recording unclipped/uncompressed/unlimited if you like to listen to 80+ dB SPL or so.

To people with the AHB2, and especially if you have 8 ohm speakers: is the clipping indicator showing that you don't have enough power?

I hope Thomas can put this all in a new thread and we can put oscilloscopes to our equipment and compare results.

 

[Blumlein 88]

You can call it what you want, but if you have peaks 20 dB above the rms level, you'll have spikes of power 100X what it is used continuously. when he sets the tone "relative to digital clipping" this tone should reflect that, if not Pano's didn't set the tone properly. Also if you see a speaker that gives a sensitivity of say 90 dB spl 1W 1m it doesn't mean you use only 1W continuously, obviously,it is for 1k, for a wideband signal, it is more, speakers doesn't have even impedance across the band, and most people obviously listen at more than a meter. Regardless on how you choose to do the maths, a 100W amp cannot give you a fairly dynamic recording unclipped/uncompressed/unlimited if you like to listen to 80+ dB SPL or so.

I have used -20 db test signals when I've done something like this. It doesn't matter however, if you used -12 the end result would point to the same power level. You aren't thinking through the Pano test. Whether 100 watts is enough depends on the speaker. Not everyone listens at 80 plus db spl average levels.

If I tested with -20 db and measured 2 volts, it would indicate I need an amp of 20 volt max output. If I used -12 db, I would measure 5 volts and it would indicate an amp with 20 volt max output is needed.