PrimaLuna Dialogue Three Preamp Review

[Sal1950]

I don’t trust Stereophile measurements, or any other rags since they have huge conflict of interest as they are paid by these manufacturers through advertising and receive hand selected units from these manufacturers!

I mostly agree but when it comes to his measurements John wouldn't dare fudge them to any degree.
They are way too easy to replicate by Amir or anyone else with the equipment to do so.
The last thing he would ever want would be to be made to look a fool in the science community.
He already comes close enough when a product measures like crap but he turns and gives the nod to the subjective
reviewer who claims it sounds glorious in spite of all it's issues.

 

[Descartes]

Not I trust Stereophile measurements, they have huge conflict of interest as they are paid by these manufacturers through advertising and receive hand selected units from these manufacturers!

I mostly agree but when it comes to his measurements John wouldn't dare fudge them to any degree.
They are way too easy to replicate by Amir or anyone else with the equipment to do so.
The last thing he would ever want would be to be made to look a fool in the science community.
He already comes close enough when a product measures like crap but he turns gives the nod to the subjective
reviewer who claims it sounds glorious in spite of all it's issues.

Exactly my point how can you give a good recommandation when a product measures like crap!!

 

[Sal1950]

Exactly my point how can you give a good recommandation when a product measures like crap!!

That's their whole position.
The measurements don't count. Sighted, uncontroled listening will tell the real story.
But John isn't about to start falsifying measurement results, he doesn't have to.

 

[Descartes]

Used to own an integrated from PrimaLuna but the heat was too much especially during the summer months! Also after five years I joined ASR and learned the truth!

 

[Tube Guy]

Hey guys and gals I'm Kevin Deal, the mouthpiece for PrimaLuna in the states (thought I would say that before somebody else does). I don't want to get in to tube vs solid state. Everybody knows ss will measure better. I have talked often about it with one of my best friends, who has been a mentor for many years. We both agree that little magic boxes designed by a "former nuclear engineer" are bullshit. You know...the boxes you can't open and have designs so unique it's almost classified. But our opinions differed on some other topics.

More recently he has come to realize that all of this is about feeling good and communicating with music. When I was 16 I had a Sansui 1000A Link to 1000A info and my buddy got the new Sansui 9090DB super receiver. For me, and many of the others in the pot-filled room, there was no comparison. The 1000A was the way to listen to Ziggy Stardust.

I would rather have a PrimaLuna EVO400 over a stack of solid state costing five times more. Or leave out the name brand....I like tubes. It's the emotional feelings that I get that says "Everything's OK" and a true sense of ease. Full disclosure my reference system has Pathos Inpol hybrids. My other systems are all tube.

There is no real reason to buy a Porsche 997.2 GT3 with a manual over a new 2024 GT3 with PDK. The new car will do laps faster, be easier to commute with in bad traffic, offer more space, comfort, and tech. But my 997.2 GT3 has and is increasing in value where it sells for $200k where a "newer" 991 GT3...even a 991.2, sells for less.

If we use the same logic used here for watches, nobody would buy a mechanical watch over a $10 digital or even a $100 Omega/Swatch. But they do. And not only because they are show-offs, because they love how they work and the connection. And they want it. Nobody needs it. I collect old Speedmasters and other stuff most have not heard of. I almost never wear them. But that's up to me.

And so it is with tubes. We sold a ton of DiaLogue Three preamps. A ton. You can't find one for sale anywhere, at any price...not just in the USA but around the world. Check HFi Shark linked here HiFi Shark Search Let's be honest with ourselves. I have a lot of PrimaLuna owners that are Electrical Engineers and they know what they are buying.

Same with the DiaLogue Seven that got so trashed here. One of the most popular amps of its time. It's right here. Zero for sale worldwide. Link to HiFishark

Being a retailer, you might think all I want is turnover to make more money. But when we get owners that have been satisfied and not seeking change for more than 20 years, it makes me happy.

It would be nice if you make sure the tube products that you review have good tubes in them. The DiaLoge Seven in the picture was not a stock photo and appeared to be the one tested. It had original Shuguang KT88s and with that the tubes may be 15 years old. The preamp is about the same vintage.

I do love this forum by the way. It uncovers bullshit, and I applaud that. Are tubes bullshit? Ask Robby Krieger or maybe Rick Rubin.

 

[Sal1950]

I do love this forum by the way. It uncovers bullshit, and I applaud that. Are tubes bullshit?

Only if the listener is interested in hearing an accurate reproduction of whats on the source,
That's why it's called High Fidelity.

Otherwise any listener is more than welcome to introduce any amounts of distortion that pleases them
Tubes, bass to +10db, whatever floats your boat.
But "sounds good to me" isn't and never will be High Fidelity.

"2. The Vacuum-Tube Lie

This lie is also, in a sense, about a peripheral matter, since vacuum tubes are hardly mainstream in the age of silicon. It’s an all-pervasive lie, however, in the high-end audio market; just count the tube-equipment ads as a percentage of total ad pages in the typical high-end magazine. Unbelievable! And so is, of course, the claim that vacuum tubes are inherently superior to transistors in audio applications–don’t you believe it.

Tubes are great for high-powered RF transmitters and microwave ovens but not, at the turn of the century, for amplifiers, preamps, or (good grief!) digital components like CD and DVD players. What’s wrong with tubes? Nothing, really. There’s nothing wrong with gold teeth, either, even for upper incisors (that Mideastern grin); it’s just that modern dentistry offers more attractive options. Whatever vacuum tubes can do in a piece of audio equipment, solid-state devices can do better, at lower cost, with greater reliability. Even the world’s best-designed tube amplifier will have higher distortion than an equally well-designed transistor amplifier and will almost certainly need more servicing (tube replacements, rebiasing, etc.) during its lifetime. (Idiotic designs such as 8-watt single-ended triode amplifiers are of course exempt, by default, from such comparisons since they have no solid-state counterpart.)

As for the “tube sound,” there are two possibilities: (1) It’s a figment of the deluded audiophile’s imagination, or (2) it’s a deliberate coloration introduced by the manufacturer to appeal to corrupted tastes, in which case a solid-state design could easily mimic the sound if the designer were perverse enough to want it that way.

Yes, there exist very special situations where a sophisticated designer of hi-fi electronics might consider using a tube (e.g., the RF stage of an FM tuner), but those rare and narrowly qualified exceptions cannot redeem the common, garden-variety lies of the tube marketers, who want you to buy into an obsolete technology.
Peter Aczel"

 

[ahofer]

Are tubes bullshit? Ask Robby Krieger or maybe Rick Rubin.

As a guitarist, I love tubes. But more as part of the creation process than the reproduction process. To each their own, but saying tubes are more accurate or “more musical” would be the bullshit part. They *can* be very accurate, but it’s harder to achieve than with solid state. Preferring them…everyone here is fine with that, although they are a very blunt tool for adding effects to all your recordings. And of course these effects can be measured and understood.

 

[Tube Guy]

I would never say more accurate or for everybody. It's sad that if somebody likes tubes better, they've been influenced to believe so or they don't have a brain. I've been in this as a living for 47 years, and my passion for tubes has never waned. But if somebody likes solid state, well I do too. I don't insult them. I say "Go you", not "Your wrong"

I enjoy the forum, and my reason for piping in is to suggest that if this is truly about "science," we should not test a power amp that probably has well over 10 years on the output tubes.

 

[Mart68]

I'd bet that even with brand new tubes it would still measure poorly.

Also be surprised if more than a handful of tube aficionados would be able to distinguish their tube amp from a solid state amp in a blind comparison - unless it was heroically poor.

It's really all just marketing and wishful thinking. There's no harm done by it, but let's not be kidding everyone on about the tube magic. We come to this forum to get away from all that.

 

[SIY]

I enjoy the forum, and my reason for piping in is to suggest that if this is truly about "science," we should not test a power amp that probably has well over 10 years on the output tubes.

The last Dyna SCA-35 I rebuilt had tubes older than that and it was working absolutely fine. If you use decent tubes and you design your circuits well, they can last a pretty decent span.

 

[Mart68]

I told this story before so apologies if anyone recalls it but I had a tube amp designer come round one time to drop off some speakers.

He stopped for a listen and after a bit he asked what the amp was.

I told him XTZ and he asked what valves it used. I said 'It's solid state.'

He reacted then said 'Must be class A then.'

Nope.

 

[C. Cook]

if this is truly about "science," we should not test a power amp that probably has well over 10 years on the output tubes.

But if this is truly about science, approximately or exactly how many hours of 'burn-in' should tubes have? Is there any way of measuring that? And what about "cryogenically" treated tubes compared to other non-treated tubes of the same age and model?

Don't get me wrong, I've played around with and had fun with tubes in the past, including the not-so-distant past, and I even chanced upon a particular set of speakers that sounded really 'cool' with tubes and a certain type of music (ex. guitar riffs like The Cars "Let the Good Times Roll" on a pair of Wharfedale Jades). Some guitarists prefer tube amps precisely for the distortion. But a decent solid state amp can be made to mimic any type or amount of distortion through signal processing, including whatever a given tube amp sounds like.

In the world of hi-fidelity music reproduction, tubes simply cannot escape the distortion inherent in the technology. I do seem to remember reading somewhere that tube amplifiers impart distortion at 2nd order bands, or even harmonics, or something like that, but I'm not sure if any scientific measurements or studies have ever proven that, or that the 'human ear' really 'prefers' it. Probably more likely that in the past, when compared against poorly designed solid state equipment, or SS designs intentionally based on serious compromises, a good tube amp does sound better, but those days are mostly long gone.

 

[Sal1950]

It's really all just marketing and wishful thinking. There's no harm done by it, but let's not be kidding everyone on about the tube magic. We come to this forum to get away from all that.

Amen,

There's no harm done by it,

But I do have to scratch my head at times when we hear that oft repeated over and over.
Sure if you have a fat enough wallet to purchase a $10,000 power cable, no one has suffered any real financial or physical hurt.
OTOH there would hopefully be a level of integrity that we would strive for in this passionate market of music reproduction in the home.
IMHO It's there where the so called "high end" has badly run off the tracks.

 

[Mart68]

Amen,


But I do have to scratch my head at times when we hear that oft repeated over and over.
Sure if you have a fat enough wallet to purchase a $10,000 power cable, no one has suffered any real financial or physical hurt.
OTOH there would hopefully be a level of integrity that we would strive for in this passionate market of music reproduction in the home.
IMHO It's there where the so called "high end" has badly run off the tracks.

If you've worked in sales you know that the integrity thing is a sliding scale. Lying is wrong, 'painting a picture' isn't.

Up to the salesman to sell, the buyer to educate themselves. This is the adult world.

The tube amp still amplifies, the ten grand cable still conducts electricity. Outside of hi-fi, a ten grand handbag can still carry stuff, a ten grand watch still tells the time.

The line gets crossed when we move into the territory of true foo - 'grounding boxes' and suchlike, where the item has no function at all - and the salesman almost certainly knows this but sells it anyway.

 

[Sal1950]

If you've worked in sales you know that the integrity thing is a sliding scale.

I fully get what your saying here but I have worked in retail sales and always had to be able to sleep at night
when I laid my head down. I can't think of a single time where I ever knowingly sold a customer a "bill of goods" that
I didn't believe in? I have refused management to push a number of products I found as a scam or snake-oil.
Maybe that's just me?

 

[Tube Guy]

We come to this forum to get away from all that.

Yeah I can see that. It's unfortunate other people's opinions are very quickly dealt with. Dude...I'm just telling you I like tubes. I ran through the index of reviews and the majority are products under $300, so I may have misread the room. I get it.

I really appreciate the gear that you test that may not get attention elsewhere and that music lovers can afford.

 

[DMill]

It’s slightly off topic, but I’ve been to countless concerts in my life. And, by nature, most of those sound systems introduce a fair amount of distortion. I wonder if “tube magic” introduces a sense of realism to some recordings that makes them feel more alive for many (I run a tube based 2nd system in transparency)? Speaking for the minority, as someone who enjoys tubes, maybe you are asking the wrong question about which measures best? I know the answer btw.

 

[amirm]

I enjoy the forum, and my reason for piping in is to suggest that if this is truly about "science," we should not test a power amp that probably has well over 10 years on the output tubes.

Send us some that are new and I am happy to test them.

Everybody knows ss will measure better.

And sounds better too. I have tested a number of tube amps and have listened to probably 100+ at shows and friend's houses. I have never, ever heard it sound better than solid state. I have however, found tube amps to sound much worse many times. The sound is routinely muddy and if you crank up the volume, it can get distorted in a hurry.

On PrimaLuna, when Madrona Digital first started, we had a fancy showroom so the rep wanted us to carry them. I listened to a loaner one and thought it sounded horrid and passed on it.

All of this said, high output impedance of tube gear will modify the frequency response of the speaker. So it is not out of the question that such modification may make the overall system sound better. But get a proper speaker that is in no need of such random EQ and there is no reason left for tubes to sound better.

Now, on you and others hearing the magic of tubes, I don't know what to say until a controlled test shows that. Until then, here is a story on how "good" audiophiles are. I have a RTR deck and bought a classical music tape recorded in Canada. I think the cost was $280 a tape or something like that. I listen to it and notice that there is a buzzing sound in one channel that comes and goes. It would start faint and gradually get louder and louder and then go away only to come back later. I reach out the owner of the company and he said there was no way such an issue was there and pointed me to a (late) online reviewer who praised that recording. You know, the usual as sky opening to heaven kind of praise. I insisted the problem was there and pointed out to the exact location of it. Owner responds back this time acknowledging the issue, saying it is one channel of their tube preamp doing that (front-end to the tape recorder). If "audiophiles" can't detect such artifacts, one can easily reason that they don't have discriminating ears and are unable to hear problems with tube products. So appealing to them or oneself on this front doesn't add up to much, to me and many others here.

Don't you ever wonder if there is some fidelity advantage to tubes, why it has been replaced completely in all other domains of amplification?

 

[Ken1951]

I'm just telling you I like tubes. I ran through the index of reviews and the majority are products under $300, so I may have misread the room. I get it.

Yeah, nobody here can afford anything over that price...

 

[Mart68]

I fully get what your saying here but I have worked in retail sales and always had to be able to sleep at night
when I laid my head down. I can't think of a single time where I ever knowingly sold a customer a "bill of goods" that
I didn't believe in? I have refused management to push a number of products I found as a scam or snake-oil.
Maybe that's just me?

No, not just you. I sold cell phones and the related insurance and airtime packages, and then later commercial vehicle leasing - so the customer was always getting something for their money.

No way would I ever sell things like grounding boxes or magic fuses. I'd live in box under a flyover before I'd do that. It's essentially theft.

My point was that selling tube amps, no matter how crap they are, is not the same as that at all.