PrimaLuna Dialogue Three Preamp Review

[Sal1950]

My point was that selling tube amps, no matter how crap they are, is not the same as that at all.

We'll have to agree to dis-agree on that one.

 

[Mart68]

We'll have to agree to dis-agree on that one.

I was at a show a fair few years ago and there was a room where a UK manufacturer of tube pre powers (not Audionote) and their own speakers, was exhibiting a full system.

It was one of the worst things I ever heard - dull, muffled, woolly bass - absolutely piss-poor in every single possible respect. Three blokes sat in front of me. When the demo ended one turned to the other and said 'Well, that's made my mind up. I'm definitely going to buy these amplifiers.'

There's just no accounting for taste.

 

[Serg]

No, not just you. I sold cell phones and the related insurance and airtime packages, and then later commercial vehicle leasing - so the customer was always getting something for their money.

No way would I ever sell things like grounding boxes or magic fuses. I'd live in box under a flyover before I'd do that. It's essentially theft.

My point was that selling tube amps, no matter how crap they are, is not the same as that at all.

I agree with you 100%. Saying tube amps are the same/similar to snake oil garbage seems pretty obtuse. That being said, same goes for saying they sound better than a good measuring SS system. Tube amps, like vinyl are about the look/feel/experience... for some, it's just a better experience. For many people, an air cooled Porsche with a manual transmission, or a mechanical watch, are MUCH preferred to their modern, higher performing counterparts.

 

[Sal1950]

That being said, same goes for saying they sound better than a good measuring SS system. Tube amps, like vinyl are about the look/feel/experience... for some, it's just a better experience.

So how would you sell them if you didn't say they sound better?
That's the sales pitch you read everywhere and any where.
Tubes, cable, grounding boxes, vinyl and all the rest are marketed on those claims.
Truth be told, and their sales numbers would crumble.
A lie, is a lie, is a lie

 

[Serg]

So how would you sell them if you didn't say they sound better?
That's the sales pitch you read everywhere and any where.
Tubes, cable, grounding boxes, vinyl and all the rest are marketed on those claims.
Truth be told, and their sales numbers would crumble.
A lie, is a lie, is a lie

Well shit... very valid point! All part of psychoacoustics in the end... but still not nearly as big of a lie as cables, etc.

 

[ahofer]

Paradoxically, snake oil, labeled as such, is no longer Snake Oil.

(AI-make me a Dali-style “this is not snake oil” painting)

There was a claim in another thread (by a competing tube amp manufacturer) that the transient distortion of tubes increases the user perception of dynamic range. We never did chase that down in measurements.

 

[ahofer]

I seem to be having this discussion on X

https://twitter.com/x/status/1855350475949768771

Update: “what you call ‘clean’ I call ‘sterile and lifeless’ “. Sigh.

 

[Ken1951]

I seem to be having this discussion on X

https://twitter.com/x/status/1855350475949768771

That is - - a disturbing photo!

 

[gofishus]

Send us some that are new and I am happy to test them.

And sounds better too. I have tested a number of tube amps and have listened to probably 100+ at shows and friend's houses. I have never, ever heard it sound better than solid state. I have however, found tube amps to sound much worse many times. The sound is routinely muddy and if you crank up the volume, it can get distorted in a hurry.

On PrimaLuna, when Madrona Digital first started, we had a fancy showroom so the rep wanted us to carry them. I listened to a loaner one and thought it sounded horrid and passed on it.

All of this said, high output impedance of tube gear will modify the frequency response of the speaker. So it is not out of the question that such modification may make the overall system sound better. But get a proper speaker that is in no need of such random EQ and there is no reason left for tubes to sound better.

Now, on you and others hearing the magic of tubes, I don't know what to say until a controlled test shows that. Until then, here is a story on how "good" audiophiles are. I have a RTR deck and bought a classical music tape recorded in Canada. I think the cost was $280 a tape or something like that. I listen to it and notice that there is a buzzing sound in one channel that comes and goes. It would start faint and gradually get louder and louder and then go away only to come back later. I reach out the owner of the company and he said there was no way such an issue was there and pointed me to a (late) online reviewer who praised that recording. You know, the usual as sky opening to heaven kind of praise. I insisted the problem was there and pointed out to the exact location of it. Owner responds back this time acknowledging the issue, saying it is one channel of their tube preamp doing that (front-end to the tape recorder). If "audiophiles" can't detect such artifacts, one can easily reason that they don't have discriminating ears and are unable to hear problems with tube products. So appealing to them or oneself on this front doesn't add up to much, to me and many others here.

Don't you ever wonder if there is some fidelity advantage to tubes, why it has been replaced completely in all other domains of amplification?

It hasn't been replaced in the domain of guitarists, where solid state has still yet to overtake tubes despite solid state guitar amps existing since the 1960s. For some reason or other whether due to sound preference or due to mystique, tube amplifiers have dominated the guitarist space pretty much it's entire existence.
But I acknowledge this is a website focused on measurements, so the hate on tube amps here is pretty expected.

 

[BDWoody]

It hasn't been replaced in the domain of guitarists, where solid state has still yet to overtake tubes despite solid state guitar amps existing since the 1960s. For some reason or other whether due to sound preference or due to mystique, tube amplifiers have dominated the guitarist space pretty much it's entire existence.
But I acknowledge this is a website focused on measurements, so the hate on tube amps here is pretty expected.

Guitar amps and their inherent distortion are part of the music creation process. Do you use guitar amps to feed your speakers?

This is about music reproduction. Different thing.

 

[Mart68]

It hasn't been replaced in the domain of guitarists, where solid state has still yet to overtake tubes despite solid state guitar amps existing since the 1960s. For some reason or other whether due to sound preference or due to mystique, tube amplifiers have dominated the guitarist space pretty much it's entire existence.
But I acknowledge this is a website focused on measurements, so the hate on tube amps here is pretty expected.

Quite a few members here using tube amps, some even claim to prefer them!
Probably a fair few others like me owned them in the past and got fed up with them.

Don't think there's any actual hate. Getting emotional about boxes of electronics isn't really the scene here.

Most guitarists I know have swapped to those little Class D amps with the tube effects. They say that they are much easier to lug to a gig than those giant cabs, and they go just as loud.

(Not saying that's representative of guitar players in general. Just anecdotal).

 

[gofishus]

Guitar amps and their inherent distortion are part of the music creation process. Do you use guitar amps to feed your speakers?

This is about music reproduction. Different thing.

Here is the quote "why it has been replaced completely in all other domains of amplification?"

I'm merely saying it hasn't. Guitar amplifiers are in the domain of amplification. The distinction of music reproduction and music creation was not made.

 

[gofishus]

Quite a few members here using tube amps, some even claim to prefer them!
Probably a fair few others like me owned them in the past and got fed up with them.

Don't think there's any actual hate. Getting emotional about boxes of electronics isn't really the scene here.

Most guitarists I know have swapped to those little Class D amps with the tube effects. They say that they are much easier to lug to a gig than those giant cabs, and they go just as loud.

(Not saying that's representative of guitar players in general. Just anecdotal).

Go through this thread and look again, I believe there was quite a few comments deriding people who liked tube amps better or prefer their sound essentially implying people who prefer tube amps are not to be trusted with any opinions about sound quality.

And yes, solid state amps and modeling amps exist and are getting more popular especially since their quality has gone up in recent years.. but notice how all of them still seek to 'emulate' tube amps.

 

[Mart68]

Go through this thread and look again, I believe there was quite a few comments deriding people who liked tube amps better or prefer their sound essentially implying people who prefer tube amps are not to be trusted with any opinions about sound quality.

And yes, solid state amps and modeling amps exist and are getting more popular especially since their quality has gone up in recent years.. but notice how all of them still seek to 'emulate' tube amps.

Oh yeah I don't think I ever met a guitar player who preferred solid state, but I'm sure there must be a few.

But as said, in music creation anything goes, there's no connection between creation and playback.

The more accurate system will more closely play back the 'tube sound' of the guitarist's amp. It can't be otherwise.

 

[Sal1950]

Go through this thread and look again, I believe there was quite a few comments deriding people who liked tube amps better or prefer their sound essentially implying people who prefer tube amps are not to be trusted with any opinions about sound quality.

There's music production and reproduction.

Tube amps are preferred by many in the production of music for the way they distort and have all type of driver controls; etc
to vary how that distortion is made and sounds.

A amplifier for high fidelity home reproduction is valued for the way it can produce a "straight wire with gain" amplification of the input. (lack of any distortion)
For this quality Solid State has been the superior choice for a number of decades now.
That's just the facts.

 

[DMill]

There are a number of members here on ASR that still use a tube amplifier. I use one in my office setup. It’s a cool toy. And I’m 100% certain it will not test to the level of solid state. However, a properly designed and functioning tube amp at the low to moderate levels I listen at in that room is more or less transparent. I think there is an exaggerated misconception that a good tube amp sounds like utter garbage on this site. As we often say here, changing the speakers will have a far more dramatic impact to the sound than if I were to replace the amplifier. When it finally breaks or I get tired of biasing KT88s or dealing with replacing them at about $100 each, I’ll strongly consider something more current, but I will miss the nostalgia and cool factor it provides.

 

[amirm]

But I acknowledge this is a website focused on measurements, so the hate on tube amps here is pretty expected.

This is a website focused on playback of music, not creation. We do that by measurements, listening tests and study of audio science and engineering. That you confuse us with people who create music with distortion in mind, shows you still don't understand what we do, or what they do.