restorer-john
Grand Contributor
I'm not surprised. The prices look to good to be true.
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Pioneer SP-C22 Review (Center Speaker)
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
I'm not surprised. The prices look to good to be true.
ROOSKIE
Major Contributor
@Dennis Murphy Is the crossover mod listed anywhere public? I'd like to try it if it is.
EL_PW
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I bought 2 of these about 1 year ago to use upended for stereo and was surprised that no one else was jumping on that band wagon. I see now I was ahead of my time. 
At the time you could get two of them for less than a pair of the stereo speakers in the same series. I was impressed with the sound quality for all types of music and also tried them as speakers for work Zoom calls for which they were just ok. Then sadly I knocked one over and it now has a slight hum at certain frequencies. But at $75 its a no brainer to replace. Just don't knock them over onto a hard surface while conducting the invisible orchestra like I did!
At the time you could get two of them for less than a pair of the stereo speakers in the same series. I was impressed with the sound quality for all types of music and also tried them as speakers for work Zoom calls for which they were just ok. Then sadly I knocked one over and it now has a slight hum at certain frequencies. But at $75 its a no brainer to replace. Just don't knock them over onto a hard surface while conducting the invisible orchestra like I did!Seconded! I've seen several instances telling us you're busy Mr. Murphy, but I'm hoping you can direct us nascent enthusiast with a crossover designed for the SP-C22 + BC25TG15-04? Pretty Please
.I took OP's suggestion and am using a pair of these rotated onto their sides as stereo speakers for my TV. My wife cannot understand dialog out of these thus the need to mod them. If DM is not able to, does anyone else have crossover suggestions? I watched the video linked on page 4 or 5, he just replaced the stock components with audio quality stuff of the same value. I guess I'll do the same and add the Vifa tweeters for now. I'll also take @alex-z advice and brace the cabinet. Everyone is right the black plastic wood grain is hideous. I veneered mine with white oak and placed them on white oak stands, they're much more pleasant to look at now. Thanks Everyone.
Seconded! I've seen several instances telling us you're busy Mr. Murphy, but I'm hoping you can direct us nascent enthusiast with a crossover designed for the SP-C22 + BC25TG15-04? Pretty Please
I took OP's suggestion and am using a pair of these rotated onto their sides as stereo speakers for my TV. My wife cannot understand dialog out of these thus the need to mod them. If DM is not able to, does anyone else have crossover suggestions? I watched the video linked on page 4 or 5, he just replaced the stock components with audio quality stuff of the same value. I guess I'll do the same and add the Vifa tweeters for now. I'll also take @alex-z advice and brace the cabinet. Everyone is right the black plastic wood grain is hideous. I veneered mine with white oak and placed them on white oak stands, they're much more pleasant to look at now. Thanks Everyone.
Are you running without a centre channel? Modding the C22 won't fix dialogue clarity if you don't have a centre channel. Even something cheap like the Emotiva C1+, Elac UC52, or SVS Prime Center channel all make a huge difference.
Replacing crossover components with items of the same value but higher quality is a waste. It is well proven that differences in capacitor and resistor quality are barely measurable, certainly not audible. Replacing iron core inductors with air core inductors does help, although frequency response can change if you don't match the inductors internal resistance.
Thanks! Yes, I'm just using an old yamaha stereo receiver. I'm trying to fix dialog without spending much money due to having a newborn and a new job (read no income previously). I'd love to have 5.1 but I figure I should save for an atmos processor? Also I'm a total audio greenhorn so I have no idea what's worth spending money on. I guess I'll leave the crossover alone for the moment. But take your advice and brace the box. Should I just slap those Vifa tweeters in there too? I used to be a professional furniture maker so I can make beautiful things, but I broke my neck and back and had to find a less physical job. I'm looking forward to making a whole system with custom enclosures, driver kits and discrete amp components when I can afford them eventually.
You definitely don't need save up for Atmos. Even a basic 3.1 or 5.1 setup is much better than 2.1 for movies/TV. You can find a lot of used AV receivers under $200, even some with HDMI 2.0. Old models from the pre-HDMI era can still handle a 5.1 signal, albeit a lossy signal over optical.
I would not swap the tweeter without tweaking the crossover, it will change the frequency response.
If you have that level of skill + tools, you could consider a whole new cabinet, with thicker walls, more absorption inside, and roundovers on the baffle edges. Reducing resonances + diffraction is a pretty straightforward way to improve sound quality. If you keep roughly the same baffle size and internal cabinet volume, the average frequency response should remain the same, but become smoother above 2500Hz. My initial suggestion of just adding bracing was for people uncomfortable with woodworking and only looking to spend $5-10 on improvement.
The following is what I have concerning the DIY mod for the Pioneer C22 center. It's been heavily edited so apologies if any part is incorrect or misleading.
I found a thread at Audiocircle on these speakers in which two Dennis Murphy mods are discussed. The lessor known one is to install the same vifa/peerless tweeter, but with just a 3.9 uf cap on the positive side of the tweeter at the crossover.
I did this with the center(c22) and also installed some one inch sonic barrier, Parts Express sells all of this stuff.
Anyway, with the tweeter, cap and sonic barrier, the center performance is markedly better. Previously the cabinet vibrations affected clarity and the dialogue at times. Also the stock tweeter can be a little inexact with some music I’ve noticed.
OK--I finally got (almost) enough information to model this, and although I'm not sure about the value of the tweeter parallel coil, as long as it's not higher than about .5 mH, you should be able to get acceptable results by removing and throwing away the old tweet, splicing in a 2 ohm resistor and a 3.9 uF cap to the wire leading to the positive terminal of the tweeter, and then attaching the end of that wire and the negative wire to the appropriate terminals of the new Vifa tweeter. The order of the resistor and cap doesn't matter, just so they're connected n line with each other. The highs won't be perfectly flat--they'll trend down about 4 dB before rising again, but the response should be good enough for the superior Vifa tweeter to improve the clarity of vocals. If you hate it, it's easy enough to undo unless you really did throw away the old tweeter.
Dennis Murphy:
Thanks Lary. Just so there isn't any confusion, the mod you implemented in the field is kind of a stop-gap version for people who already have the stock Pioneers. The modded version I sell has much more extensive revisions to the crossover, plus added sound treatment for the cabinet. I know Danny at GR research sells some good stuff--just for my own edification, which subs are you recommending and how much do they cost? thanks
The crossover mods move the woofer crossover point down 20% (larger L2-L1 combo), move the tweeter crossover point down 10% (larger L3), goes to 3rd order which not only sharpens the tweeter rolloff but also brings the woofer and tweeter phases close together around the crossover point, and finally brings the tweeter down a bit after 10 KHz. Woofer/tweeter sensitivity balance is unchanged.
View attachment 217747
I found a thread at Audiocircle on these speakers in which two Dennis Murphy mods are discussed. The lessor known one is to install the same vifa/peerless tweeter, but with just a 3.9 uf cap on the positive side of the tweeter at the crossover.
I did this with the center(c22) and also installed some one inch sonic barrier, Parts Express sells all of this stuff.
Anyway, with the tweeter, cap and sonic barrier, the center performance is markedly better. Previously the cabinet vibrations affected clarity and the dialogue at times. Also the stock tweeter can be a little inexact with some music I’ve noticed.
Dennis Murphy:
OK--I finally got (almost) enough information to model this, and although I'm not sure about the value of the tweeter parallel coil, as long as it's not higher than about .5 mH, you should be able to get acceptable results by removing and throwing away the old tweet, splicing in a 2 ohm resistor and a 3.9 uF cap to the wire leading to the positive terminal of the tweeter, and then attaching the end of that wire and the negative wire to the appropriate terminals of the new Vifa tweeter. The order of the resistor and cap doesn't matter, just so they're connected n line with each other. The highs won't be perfectly flat--they'll trend down about 4 dB before rising again, but the response should be good enough for the superior Vifa tweeter to improve the clarity of vocals. If you hate it, it's easy enough to undo unless you really did throw away the old tweeter.
Dennis Murphy:
Thanks Lary. Just so there isn't any confusion, the mod you implemented in the field is kind of a stop-gap version for people who already have the stock Pioneers. The modded version I sell has much more extensive revisions to the crossover, plus added sound treatment for the cabinet. I know Danny at GR research sells some good stuff--just for my own edification, which subs are you recommending and how much do they cost? thanks
| 20th February 2020, | 33 |
| paulster diyAudio Member Join Date: Oct 2011 | Now that Dennis has (sadly) had to get out of the speaker business, does anybody have the details for the SP-C22 center channel mod, or a lead on where to purchase a modified one? I modified my SP-BS22-LR set some time ago and have been waiting to see when Dennis would make the center available again, but that's not going to happen now. I'd really like to get a center voiced the same as the modified fronts. |
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| 20th February 2020, | #34 |
| DreadPirate diyAudio Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Athens, GA | Dennis discusses the center mod here: Philharmonic Audio - Dennis Murphy - Page 314 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews Basically, a 2ohm resistor and 3.9uF capacitor (he likes Audyn) on the + wire to the replacement Tymphany BC25TG15-04 tweeter. I really like the Pioneer based Affordable Accuracy monitors. I also built the modified BR-1s and, quite honestly, I prefer the Pioneers. |
View attachment 217747
AL B BACH
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Not sure if anyone still needs this but here is a pic of my AA Center (Pioneer C22) crossover that I got from DM to go with a pair of AA+ in Oct 2018.
I had picked up a couple Pioneer C22s cheap to use as matching surround channels and I wanted to AA 'em. I found that DM had posted the schematics for his version of the C22 full mod. in post #10,440 at https://www.avsforum.com/threads/philharmonic-audio-dennis-murphy.1348949/page-522#post-60049357
I compared my AA Center crossover to it and everything matched except the 12.5 ohm resistor on the right of my sketch (not highlighted). Mine had a 20 ohm resistor instead.
I was already emailing DM to get a pair of the new AAs so I asked him about this. He replied "I kept futzing with the final leg of the tweeter circuit. The stock center's response kept changing with new production runs. I wouldn't change anything unless the modded center's response sounds too bright to you. If it does, I would reduce the value of the parallel resistor to 12.5 Ohms. But on a center, it's probably better to err on the side of brightness to make sure dialog clarity doesn't suffer."
I'm very satisfied with my AA Center so I used 20 ohm when I upgraded the C22s but they haven't replaced my surrounds yet. They are in rotation with 5 other speaker pairs in a 2.1 setup with an old AJ Pioneer SW8 and they're holding their own. They sound pretty good standing upright.
@AL B BACH hell ya this is awesome! Thanks so much for posting this!
Power Pop 23
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Woot! is currently selling 'New; Open Box' samples of the Pioneer SP-C22 center channel loudspeaker for $43.64 each:
On the way! I have one already, orphaned by upgrading, but I'm curious to try a stereo pair on the desktop. One in mono is okay with the strengths and weaknesses mentioned above. It's more pleasing rotated than it was as a center channel.
BoysRBackinTown
Member
Thanks for posting this by the way, this is one of the most concrete bits of information about the center channel I have seen and I am planning on doing it later.
TimW
Major Contributor
Thank you @AL B BACH and @BoysRBackinTown
I did this mod myself using a Parts Express 3.5" x 5" perforated board and an XT30 connector so that the crossover could be mounted to the original binding post plate.
Just for clarity, this replacement crossover was designed by Dennis Murphy for use with the Peerless BC25TG15-04 tweeter in the C22 speaker.
I did this mod myself using a Parts Express 3.5" x 5" perforated board and an XT30 connector so that the crossover could be mounted to the original binding post plate.
Just for clarity, this replacement crossover was designed by Dennis Murphy for use with the Peerless BC25TG15-04 tweeter in the C22 speaker.
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BoysRBackinTown
Member
Yeah, that’s the tweeter I used. They actually sent me a spare so now I just have an extra kicking around and am tempted to just buy another one and mod another set! Good job! Did you put the crossover board through the woofer hole? I cut mine down so I didn’t have to remove more than the tweeter but in retrospect I should have just gone through the driver.
Also I’m waiting to get some more soundproofing before I seal it up with double sided 3M tape (instead of reusing the baffle). I’m unsure if it makes sense to prioritize the area behind the woofer or the tweeter but instead im going to just do the whole thing once the sonic barrier comes in.
TimW
Major Contributor
Thanks, I did put the crossover board through the woofer cutout. With that size of perf board and the zip ties it just barely fit. I wouldn't be surprised if sonic barrier is measurably superior to the light batting installed from the factory in these speakers. With that being said the factory batting was installed decently well and covered every surface other than the short side surfaces, so that is the only place I installed sonic barrier.
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