Neumann KH120 II Monitor Review

[dominikz]

So not much better than KH80?

That should not be a surprise, both neasure close to perfect. KH120II just has more max SPL capability and LF extension.
If high levels are not required and a subwoofer is used I expect they should work pretty much the same - actually, for an ultra-nearfield desktop system KH80 is probably the better choice because it is smaller and easier to fit.
However KH120II is surely a better choice if you play at levels that cause the KH80 to clip/distort, and/or don't use a sub.

 

[dickiefunk]

I’ve been considering upgrading my 12 year old KH120’s and have recently been comparing them to another brand that costs over twice as much. I’ve been using them for a few days and I have to say I’m really disappointed and underwhelmed with the expensive monitors that I’m trying! As a result I’m realising I particularly like the flat sound of the Neumanns. This had led me to the option of the newer KH120ii’s or KH150’s. My mixing room is very small so I’m leaning towards the KH120ii’s. However, I will most likely add the KH750 sub at some point later.
From my understanding , the newer KH120ii’s are an improvement over the original KH120’s even before you use the MA1 system (which is now included for free for the next few months)!
When I finally add the KH750, will the improvements with the KH120’s still be noticeable?
Also will I have more latency as both the KH120ii’s and KH750 both have dsp compared to using the original analog KH120mk1’s with the KH750?

Regards
Richard

 

[Pearljam5000]

W

I’ve been considering upgrading my 12 year old KH120’s and have recently been comparing them to another brand that costs over twice as much. I’ve been using them for a few days and I have to say I’m really disappointed and underwhelmed with the expensive monitors that I’m trying! As a result I’m realising I particularly like the flat sound of the Neumanns. This had led me to the option of the newer KH120ii’s or KH150’s. My mixing room is very small so I’m leaning towards the KH120ii’s. However, I will most likely add the KH750 sub at some point later.
From my understanding , the newer KH120ii’s are an improvement over the original KH120’s even before you use the MA1 system (which is now included for free for the next few months)!
When I finally add the KH750, will the improvements with the KH120’s still be noticeable?
Also will I have more latency as both the KH120ii’s and KH750 both have dsp compared to using the original analog KH120mk1’s with the KH750?

Regards
Richard

What other brand of monitors did you compare them to?

 

[HarmonicTHD]

I’ve been considering upgrading my 12 year old KH120’s and have recently been comparing them to another brand that costs over twice as much. I’ve been using them for a few days and I have to say I’m really disappointed and underwhelmed with the expensive monitors that I’m trying! As a result I’m realising I particularly like the flat sound of the Neumanns. This had led me to the option of the newer KH120ii’s or KH150’s. My mixing room is very small so I’m leaning towards the KH120ii’s. However, I will most likely add the KH750 sub at some point later.
From my understanding , the newer KH120ii’s are an improvement over the original KH120’s even before you use the MA1 system (which is now included for free for the next few months)!
When I finally add the KH750, will the improvements with the KH120’s still be noticeable?
Also will I have more latency as both the KH120ii’s and KH750 both have dsp compared to using the original analog KH120mk1’s with the KH750?

Regards
Richard

The new KH line employs DSP which is used as digital crossover and results in this very nice and flat FR. It is therefore always on regardless whether you use the MA1 software for room correction.

The sub obviously further extends the frequency range and if that is something you need is up to you. Also depending on your listening levels it lightens the „load“ of the small speakers and reduces distortion at high SPL levels (above ca 86dB SPL, look up the KH120ii review and see when they start distorting. Distortion below 40dB is good for speakers).

As for latency, Neumann publishes these values and as far as I remember these are in the low single digit ms range. The latency from your DAW / PC are usually an order of magnitude higher so I wouldn’t worry about the KH.

 

[dominikz]

From my understanding , the newer KH120ii’s are an improvement over the original KH120’s even before you use the MA1 system (which is now included for free for the next few months)!

They are, but I'd say the main improvement is DSP capability and a bit more max SPL capability in low frequencies in the new one. Both measure really good/similar and therefore might sound quite close in practice.

When I finally add the KH750, will the improvements with the KH120’s still be noticeable?

TBH I expect adding KH750 would close the gap further, since it allows MA1 calibration even with the older KH120A.

Also will I have more latency as both the KH120ii’s and KH750 both have dsp compared to using the original analog KH120mk1’s with the KH750?

The passthrough latencies should add-up with an analog sub->speaker connection, yes.
Perhaps this could be avoided with a digital connection - best to check with Neumann support!

 

[dominikz]

As for latency, Neumann publishes these values and as far as I remember these are in the low single digit ms range. The latency from your DAW / PC are usually an order of magnitude higher so I wouldn’t worry about the KH.

However passthrough latency adds-up quickly and can become a problem for recording musicians above a certain threshold (~10-15ms in my experience), so it makes sense to keep it in mind in studio environments. This is of course only relevant for tracking with real-time monitoring, not for mixing/mastering, listening to music or watching movies.
Latency will be added by the DAW, by AD and DA steps in the soundcard, by any DSP mixers in the soundcard driver, by any outboard digital processors/effects, by the sound travelling in air... so a few extra ms can sometimes just push it over the limit to become problematic.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

However passthrough latency adds-up quickly and can become a problem for recording musicians above a certain threshold (~10-15ms in my experience), so it makes sense to keep it in mind in studio environments. This is of course only relevant for tracking with real-time monitoring, not for mixing/mastering, listening to music or watching movies.
Latency will be added by the DAW, by AD and DA steps in the soundcard, by any DSP mixers in the soundcard driver, by any outboard digital processors/effects, by the sound travelling in air... so a few extra ms can sometimes just push it over the limit to become problematic.

Yes it is good to track latency... and yes 10-15ms might become a problem when playing (e.g. guitar) and monitoring. However it isnt a problem, if you dont have a DAW in between, because the KH latency is about 2 ms afik (look it up please). When plugging a DAW in between and when selecting high sample rates combined with low CPU power one can easily get 10 or more ms just from the DAW alone.

(I use KH80 / KH750 and Ableton Live Suite, play guitar and never had a latency problem unless I go to 96kHz or higher sample rate (i7k, 5Ghz), which isnt really needed anyhow, so better stay at 48kHz).

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Let me do your homework for you.... KH120ii from Neumann Webpage (Data&Diagrams).

 

[dominikz]

Yes it is good to track latency... and yes 10-15ms might become a problem when playing (e.g. guitar) and monitoring. However it isnt a problem, if you dont have a DAW in between, because the KH latency is about 2 ms afik (look it up please). When plugging a DAW in between and when selecting high sample rates combined with low CPU power one can easily get 10 or more ms just from the DAW alone.

(I use KH80 / KH750 and Ableton Live Suite, play guitar and never had a latency problem unless I go to 96kHz or higher sample rate (i7k, 5Ghz), which isnt really needed anyhow, so better stay at 48kHz).

Thanks, indeed DAW SW introduces significant additional latency to the table!

E.g. my soundcard itself generates ~1,7ms at 48kHz (~0,8ms at 96kHz) total passthrough latency (analogue input to analogue output).

However when tracking guitar with real-time monitoring in my DAW (Studio One 5.5 Pro) I need to set the ASIO buffer size to 128 samples to get ~10,5ms total passthrough latency at 48kHz sampling rate. At 96kHz sampling rate I can increase the ASIO buffer slightly to 256 samples and stay around 9,6ms total passthrough latency.
Note that higher sample rates allow lower latency for the same ASIO buffer size because the samples themselves are "shorter"; but higher sample rates also stress the CPU more and can therefore cause dropouts more easily!

Now if I had the KH120II (2,6ms A-D-A latency) and KH750 (1,5ms A-D-A latency) connected with analogue cables that should add a total of 4,1ms to the above figures - so I'd need to decrease the ASIO buffer size to 48 or 64 samples to stay around 10ms total passthrough latency at 48kHz. My current PC couldn't handle that without severe dropouts!

Note: Perhaps it is worth checking with Neumann if they use some kind of optimization to avoid this kind of passthrough latency summation - e.g. perhaps KH750 analogue outputs can be configured to not pass through ADC/DSP/DAC, or perhaps KH750 S/PDIF signal is direct passthrough. This could probably even be tested with REW.

To be honest, the last few years I generally try to completely avoid using SW monitoring when tracking. Instead I monitor directly through RME TotalMix mixer and thereby largely avoid latency-induced headaches.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Thanks, indeed DAW SW introduces significant additional latency to the table!

E.g. my soundcard itself generates ~1,7ms at 48kHz (~0,8ms at 96kHz) total passthrough latency (analogue input to analogue output).

However when tracking guitar with real-time monitoring in my DAW (Studio One 5.5 Pro) I need to set the ASIO buffer size to 128 samples to get ~10,5ms total passthrough latency at 48kHz sampling rate. At 96kHz sampling rate I can increase the ASIO buffer slightly to 256 samples and stay around 9,6ms total passthrough latency.
Note that higher sample rates allow lower latency for the same ASIO buffer size because the samples themselves are "shorter"; but higher sample rates also stress the CPU more and can therefore cause dropouts more easily!

Now if I had the KH120II (2,6ms A-D-A latency) and KH750 (1,5ms A-D-A latency) connected with analogue cables that should add a total of 4,1ms to the above figures - so I'd need to decrease the ASIO buffer size to 48 or 64 samples to stay around 10ms total passthrough latency at 48kHz. My current PC couldn't handle that without severe dropouts!

Note: Perhaps it is worth checking with Neumann if they use some kind of optimization to avoid this kind of passthrough latency summation - e.g. perhaps KH750 analogue outputs can be configured to not pass through ADC/DSP/DAC, or perhaps KH750 S/PDIF signal is direct passthrough. This could probably even be tested with REW.

To be honest, the last few years I generally try to completely avoid using SW monitoring when tracking. Instead I monitor directly through RME TotalMix mixer and thereby largely avoid latency-induced headaches.

Or keep your 120th and only get the KH750 and you can still use MA1 using the 750 DSP.

 

[dominikz]

Or keep your 120th and only get the KH750 and you can still use MA1 using the 750 DSP.

TBH so far I'm quite happy with my KH120A + Adam Sub7 with RME TotalMix 3-band PEQ for room EQ on my desktop.

But that doesn't mean I don't occasionally wonder if e.g. KH80+KH750+MA1 would be a better fit

 

[IamJF]

TBH so far I'm quite happy with my KH120A + Adam Sub7 with RME TotalMix 3-band PEQ for room EQ on my desktop.

But that doesn't mean I don't occasionally wonder if e.g. KH80+KH750+MA1 would be a better fit

Just start with the KH750 and use it to calibrate with MA1 your old KH120. As KH80 only have analog inputs + DSP it's not a PERFECT fit, better would be the digital input of KH120ii. Also for instrument recordings max SPL of KH80 could be limiting, depending on your use. I'm pretty sure KH120ii is still an upgrade to KH120 even when used with KH750 but by how much I really can't say.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Just start with the KH750 and use it to calibrate with MA1 your old KH120. As KH80 only have analog inputs + DSP it's not a PERFECT fit, better would be the digital input of KH120ii. Also for instrument recordings max SPL of KH80 could be limiting, depending on your use. I'm pretty sure KH120ii is still an upgrade to KH120 even when used with KH750 but by how much I really can't say.

With playing EDM @ 1.5 meters at a reasonable volume +
How much will KH120II is likely to clip ?

 

[IamJF]

Yes I decided to go with the KH120ii with the MA1 mic, very excited. (Didn't see any 120A's for a good enough price)



Yes I'm aware that I won't be able to properly utilize the DSP while using the Genelec Sub, however I couldn't justify getting the KH750 just yet. I still want some low end extension, so picked up the Genelec 7050C for half of what the Neumann would cost me. Eventually I'll sell it and upgrade to the KH750.

In the mean time the 7050C has an active crossover at 85hZ, so using the Neumann DSP in the KH120ii's´ wouldn't be able to affect any frequencies below 85hz. I'll play around with the software anyway and see what kind of results I can get, however with this setup it probably makes more sense to use an in-the-box DRC like Sonarworks, ARC3, or Dirac Live that will be able to affect the entire frequency range before leaving my audio interface. (Although it might be interesting to still run the Neumann DSP correction, and then see what Sonarworks etc. applies on top of that)

I would suggest to try KH120ii +MA1 without any subwoofer first. It's surprisingly good.
A fixed crossioer at 85Hz can be a pain. Maybe use an small external dsp crossover for the woofer and just use the internal DSP and EQ of the neumanns to shape the LF.
But that needs a lot of measurements to fit together and you need to know what you are doing.
That's the main thing why you would pay so much money for a KH750 - convenience. Just a few measurements with MA1 and your phase is perfect and setup is done.

 

[IamJF]

With playing EDM @ 1.5 meters at a reasonable volume +
How much will KH120II is likely to clip ?

At REASONABLE volume for your ear it will not clip. But I'm not sure if that's the volume you are talking about

 

[Joaquinín]

Well, this review and the Sound und Recording measurements showing bass capabilities similar to the venerable JBL 705 finally wore on me and I picked up a pair for the desktop. Like the previous KH 80 they are mounted on Neumann LH 65 stands.

First impression was they’re deceptively bigger than the previous KH 120, which I rejected previously because they didn’t sound much different/better than KH 80 but were bigger.

Second impression is they have a funny height alignment mechanism - the woofer dust cap is visible through the grille. If they’re too low you get an unsightly arc under the dustcap! When the dustcap and grille bump-out are aligned the height is right. Likely inadvertent, but clever nonetheless.

I think I’m going to keep them. As long as the KH 80 are around I’m going to be second guessing myself, as I’m still not entirely convinced KH 120 II is much if any better for listening to recorded music at one’s desk (as opposed to mixing/mastering, where the extra headroom on raw tracks may be critical) so I think I need to sell the ‘80s to foreclose that option…

I would appretiate to hear more about how both speakers compare subjectively. I do have a pair of Kh80s (+Monolith 10v2 and Dirac DLBC) in the nearfield (108 cm) and wonder if the Kh120II would be an upgrade. According to the available measurements I see, the difference in distortion levels is quite big (but maybe only meaningful at very high volume, and maybe it is reduced because of the DLBC high pass filter).

 

[jhaider]

I would appretiate to hear more about how both speakers compare subjectively.

There’s not much to say. They’re very similar on a casual comparison at normal desktop volumes. Close to would-I-pass-a-blind-test? similar. Look on the fantastic Spinorama.org tool @pierre made - the LW and DI are essentially identical (better matched than the speakers in a pair from many brands!) except for a bit more bass on KH120II. So SPL and size are the relevant factors. There’s psychological value in knowing you have sufficient headroom to cover any listening situation, but beyond that…

Talk about loudspeaker distortion is for suckers, mostly.

Note that I cross over at 100Hz to several small subs (3x Sonance D8) - not because of speaker capability but because of of a broad dip centered at around 70Hz caused by placement/room interaction with the mains. So the extra bass extension plays a bit role in my setup. In a different room that may be more important.

 

[IamJF]

I only had a direct comparison of KH120ii and KH80 with my E-piano ... so don't take that serious
But the more in Bass of the KH120ii gave a big advantage for realistic reproduction and good "feel" of the instrument. Also the over all sound was more natural.
But when combined with KH750 and calibrated to your listening position ... no idea how big the difference would be.

For instrument recording and studio work I would go for 120ii cause you need quite some peak SPL level to have a good feeling with that. For stand alone without sub I would also go for KH120ii. But with the sub and just for a 1 table workstation ... my bass player has exactly that setup and is very happy. And after MA-1 calibration I'm too.

 

[IamJF]

Here a short text from my first listening comparison between KH120 and KH120ii. Sorry only in German - quick tranlation.

Didn't expect - but I find KH120ii significant better!
Most important - Midrange is better and clearer. Balance is very good, also for listening to music for fun.
2nd phantom center is perfect, rooms are very wide. Didn't expect, is obvious when switching directly and not sure why.
Low frequencies deeper and louder - as expected. Sounds bigger, like one step up.

Drawback - highest Octave of KH120 seems more relaxed. Could be cause KH120ii is totally new or the additional D/A A/D conversion ... need to investigate.
Switches on the back are pretty bad to use!

Neutral - The old housing appeals more valuable, the colour on the new ones maybe more sensitives for scratches etc. But no resonances with KH120ii, so I asume everything good here.

After all - I will keep these speakers for sure!

"
Ich habe mittlerweile meine KH120ii von der Hörzone bekommen und eine erste Vergleichssession mit meinen KH120 gemacht.
Tja - das hatte ich nicht erwartet.
Ich finde die KH120ii wesentlich besser!
Das Wichtigste für mich - der kleine Frequenzbereich in den Mitten der mich bei der KH120 immer gestört hat (und den ich auch mit Einmessen und EQ nicht wegbrachte) ist verschwunden. Die Mitten sind überhaupt hervorragend balanciert - der Lautsprecher ist durchaus zum ausgedehnten Musikhören geeignet!
2. große Verbesserung - die Phantommitte ist perfekt, Räumlichkeit sehr weit. Die alten waren da auch nicht schlecht, aber das fällt beim Umschalten sofort auf und hatte ich so ausgeprägt nicht erwartet. Sehr cool.
Der Bass ist bässer und tiefer und lauter - das war ja zu erwarten. Der Speaker spielt noch mehr "aus einem Guß" und realistischer, man kann sich auf das dargestellte verlassen.
Insgesamt würde ich die KH120ii in die nächst höhere Liga stellen - und das schon ohne Einmessung.
Nachteile:
Die obersten Höhen finde ich bei der KH120 etwas "relaxter". Das könnte von der zusätzlichen D/A A/D Wandlung kommen oder weil die Speaker frisch aus der Verpackung sind ... wer weiß. Ich komm schon noch drauf

Die Schalter auf der Rückseite sind fürchterlich! Da man diese beim Setup blind bedient ist man auf Rasterpunkte angewiesen und die sind nicht zu spüren. Wurde anscheinend absichtlich so gemacht - ist für den Kunden aber echt mühsam.
Neutral:
Das Gehäuse ist leichter, wirkt weniger wertig wie der Alu Guß. Der Lack wirkt leicht zerkratzlich (tolles Wort

), ich hab aber noch nicht ausprobiert wieviel er aushält. Das Gehäuse scheint auch ruhig zu sein und keine Resonanzen zu erzeugen. Wird also schon passen.
Dank an Reinhard für die prompte Lieferung und die unkomplizierte Abwicklung. Die Speaker bleiben auf jeden Fall hier!
"

 

[Pearljam5000]

Here a short text from my first listening comparison between KH120 and KH120ii. Sorry only in German - quick tranlation.

Didn't expect - but I find KH120ii significant better!
Most important - Midrange is better and clearer. Balance is very good, also for listening to music for fun.
2nd phantom center is perfect, rooms are very wide. Didn't expect, is obvious when switching directly and not sure why.
Low frequencies deeper and louder - as expected. Sounds bigger, like one step up.

Drawback - highest Octave of KH120 seems more relaxed. Could be cause KH120ii is totally new or the additional D/A A/D conversion ... need to investigate.
Switches on the back are pretty bad to use!

Neutral - The old housing appeals more valuable, the colour on the new ones maybe more sensitives for scratches etc. But no resonances with KH120ii, so I asume everything good here.

After all - I will keep these speakers for sure!

"
Ich habe mittlerweile meine KH120ii von der Hörzone bekommen und eine erste Vergleichssession mit meinen KH120 gemacht.
Tja - das hatte ich nicht erwartet.
Ich finde die KH120ii wesentlich besser!
Das Wichtigste für mich - der kleine Frequenzbereich in den Mitten der mich bei der KH120 immer gestört hat (und den ich auch mit Einmessen und EQ nicht wegbrachte) ist verschwunden. Die Mitten sind überhaupt hervorragend balanciert - der Lautsprecher ist durchaus zum ausgedehnten Musikhören geeignet!
2. große Verbesserung - die Phantommitte ist perfekt, Räumlichkeit sehr weit. Die alten waren da auch nicht schlecht, aber das fällt beim Umschalten sofort auf und hatte ich so ausgeprägt nicht erwartet. Sehr cool.
Der Bass ist bässer und tiefer und lauter - das war ja zu erwarten. Der Speaker spielt noch mehr "aus einem Guß" und realistischer, man kann sich auf das dargestellte verlassen.
Insgesamt würde ich die KH120ii in die nächst höhere Liga stellen - und das schon ohne Einmessung.
Nachteile:
Die obersten Höhen finde ich bei der KH120 etwas "relaxter". Das könnte von der zusätzlichen D/A A/D Wandlung kommen oder weil die Speaker frisch aus der Verpackung sind ... wer weiß. Ich komm schon noch drauf

Die Schalter auf der Rückseite sind fürchterlich! Da man diese beim Setup blind bedient ist man auf Rasterpunkte angewiesen und die sind nicht zu spüren. Wurde anscheinend absichtlich so gemacht - ist für den Kunden aber echt mühsam.
Neutral:
Das Gehäuse ist leichter, wirkt weniger wertig wie der Alu Guß. Der Lack wirkt leicht zerkratzlich (tolles Wort

), ich hab aber noch nicht ausprobiert wieviel er aushält. Das Gehäuse scheint auch ruhig zu sein und keine Resonanzen zu erzeugen. Wird also schon passen.
Dank an Reinhard für die prompte Lieferung und die unkomplizierte Abwicklung. Die Speaker bleiben auf jeden Fall hier!
"

Do you mean KH120 II are brighter than the original KH120 ?