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Measuring speaker for review.

Cote Dazur

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From my understanding, to be relevant, to measure the performance of a speaker accurately it needs to be isolated from the space where the measurements are taken.
Could be an anechoic room, outside suspended, or using a software that simulate an anechoic room measurement by removing reflections.

But since the effect of the room on the performance of the speaker affect its performance, as can be clearly demonstrated by measuring the same speaker in different listening rooms, or even the same room but different speaker or microphone positioning,

I understand measuring speakers in a specific room/placement scenario, but I do not see the interest of speaker measurements outside of its living environment for a review.

Speaker to me, because of their codependency nature to their habitat, need to be tried.
 

abdo123

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Yeah ofcourse but using the same logic you should find a reviewer's opinion of little use since they're all based on what sounds good in their rooms and settings and what they personally prefer.

as a result anechoic measurements are the middle ground that is useful for everyone since these measurements are specfic to the speaker / product itself. and are not based on one particular isolated experience that cannot be repeated any where else or by anyone else.
 

DVDdoug

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Of course, if you want to measure/evaluate the speaker then you want to measure the speaker, not the speaker in a particular room. If you measure & listen in 10 different rooms you're going to get a mess of useless data.

Of course a reviewer listening to the speaker should have a reasonably-good measured & treated room to avoid misleading results/impressions.

When deciding on what speaker to purchase, it's often recommended that you listen at home before making the final decision. Some higher-end retailers used to allow customers to borrow 2 or 3 pair but I assume that's rare now that "everything" is online and there's a lot of (downward) price-pressure.
 
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Cote Dazur

Cote Dazur

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Yeah ofcourse but using the same logic you should find a reviewer's opinion of little use since they're all based on what sounds good in their rooms and settings and what they personally prefer
Yes, absolutely, even worse, subjective opinion of some stranger with a personal agenda, is of no use to me, and not just for speakers.
Measurement is the only way to get some performance indication on a product behaviour to me.
But for speakers, their performance is so dependant on the environment, more so that an electronic element, that any readings will be transformed by room size and reflection at the point of listening, that measuring the speaker on its own, with precision, seems almost useless to me when I think about it.
 

No. 5

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But for speakers, their performance is so dependant on the environment, more so that an electronic element, that any readings will be transformed by room size and reflection at the point of listening, that measuring the speaker on its own, with precision, seems almost useless to me when I think about it.
Amateur speaker designer here. When I build a set of speakers or setup a stereo system, I want to know what all the pieces in the system are contributing to the finished whole. So sure, the anechoic measurements are completely different than the in room ones, but that doesn't really matter to me. The anechoic data tells me what I'm hearing from the speaker and what I'm hearing from the room.

Think of it this way: if you cook something, do you check if all your ingredients are fresh by examining them before you add them to the dish or by tasting the dish after you have cooked everything together?
 

amirm

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Research shows that we can use anechoic measurements to predict listener preference. It is this correlation that gives these measurements so much power.

Note however that every room messes up the bass. So there, you must use EQ and correct the response. If you don't, you are going to have wrong bass regardless.
 
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Cote Dazur

Cote Dazur

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Amateur speaker designer here. When I build a set of speakers or setup a stereo system, I want to know what all the pieces in the system are contributing to the finished whole. So sure, the anechoic measurements are completely different than the in room ones, but that doesn't really matter to me. The anechoic data tells me what I'm hearing from the speaker and what I'm hearing from the room.

Think of it this way: if you cook something, do you check if all your ingredients are fresh by examining them before you add them to the dish or by tasting the dish after you have cooked everything together?
Totally agree, to design a speaker you will need to do measurements, but designing and reviewing is a different task. The dish is already cooked, :)
 

Sancus

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The idea there are some speakers suited to some rooms and some not doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. In general, the vast majority of monopoles no matter their design have similar radiation characteristics. There are some weird designs like dipoles where things get more complicated, but those are rarely reviewed and the extreme room and positioning dependency they have is not what I would consider a benefit.

The "room dependency" that most audiophiles talk about is specifically a problem of room modes messing up the bass, and swapping speakers is a very ineffective, cumbersome, and expensive way to attempt to solve that problem. It is much better to use measurements, EQ, and/or room treatment depending on the frequency.

If you don't understand the problem, you can't find a good solution.
 

No. 5

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Totally agree, to design a speaker you will need to do measurements, but designing and reviewing is a different task.
But are the two really that different? I mean, the goal of both is to identify and have good sound, one is just more hands-on.

And as you correctly said, changing speaker or microphone position will change the measurement (and sound), so if I was a reviewer, I would want anechoic data to give me insight in how to position what I was reviewing and save a lot of time tweaking the best sound out of it.
 
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Cote Dazur

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But are the two really that different?
To me they are, once the speaker is done, the reviewer can’t change it.
What I am puzzled with and trying to understand is that once you place a speaker in a room and make a reading, it looks nothing like an anechoic or simili anechoic reading, and if you change where the speaker are, or change room, the readings are drastically different again. So aiming at something when creating, yes that is important, but at the end of the day, where you put the speakers, where you seat in relation to the room and the speakers, how the room behave will affect the measurements of what you are actually listening at much more.
In my experience an average speaker well positioned in a good room, will always measure better than a great speaker badly positioned in an bad room. It is my experience that we listen more to the room than to the speakers.
 

Chrispy

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Seems no reviews would be very useful if only relying on a specific room that's not your own, let alone if only a subjective review without measurements. Something like the Klippel system used in reviews here is a good compromise without having access to an anechoic chamber.
 

amirm

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What I am puzzled with and trying to understand is that once you place a speaker in a room and make a reading, it looks nothing like an anechoic or simili anechoic reading, and if you change where the speaker are, or change room, the readings are drastically different again.
Actually they are quite similar above transition frequency of a few hundred hertz. You need to make sure to apply proper filtering or gating to in-room measurements to get comparable measurements.

Below transition, the room dominates the response so what is there is not a function of speaker anyway.
 

dfuller

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So there, you must use EQ and correct the response. If you don't, you are going to have wrong bass regardless.
EQ in addition to absorbers is the key for bass accuracy, but you already know that. EQ for peaks, absorbers for nulls.
Totally agree, to design a speaker you will need to do measurements, but designing and reviewing is a different task. The dish is already cooked, :)
Yes, but considering the vast majority don't even bother with that... lol.
 

Chrispy

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EQ in addition to absorbers is the key for bass accuracy, but you already know that. EQ for peaks, absorbers for nulls.

Yes, but considering the vast majority don't even bother with that... lol.

How do absorbers work particularly only for nulls? Really good low bass aborption can be difficult, probably better addressed by multiple subs.
 

napilopez

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In my experience an average speaker well positioned in a good room, will always measure better than a great speaker badly positioned in an bad room. It is my experience that we listen more to the room than to the speakers.
So, meaning all respect when I say this, the above isn't supported by research. I say this as a reviewer who mostly listens but also measures.

Expanding on what Amir said, if you read Dr Toole's book, which is mainly an overview of much of the existing research, you'd see several important things pointed out that make obvious why anechoic measurements are so important:

1) IMO the most important one: Humans have a remarkable ability to hear a speaker "through" the room. The room colors the sound, but the science suggests that above the Schroeder frequency (basically above 300-500hz ish) in most rooms the primary things we hear is determined by the anechoic response.

This seems related to how people even understand sounds in reverberant places in the first place. Imagine listening to someone's voice in different rooms -- you can still tell its the same voice with all its qualities and quirks even though it would 'measure' different in different rooms and technically sounds different.

The direct sound remains dominant in most home-sized rooms too. Humans are able to separate direct sounds from room reflections very well, and when you enter a room, you are able to quickly assess it's acoustic properties and use this to separate the two.

In one experiment, there's even evidence to show that this is a process that takes a some time for adaptation, and that the first few moments when changing acoustic environments rapidly, you're likely to have less clarity separating these sounds.

2) Below the schroeder frequency, the room have an increasing importance, which is likely why positioning and such does have such an impact, because the bass has an effect on how we perceive the rest of the frequencies. Nonetheless...

3) ...when it comes to evaluating speakers, measurements are still useful because there is significant evidence to show that even a speaker will sound and measure different in different rooms, the preference ranking for the speakers will tend to remain the same. In other words, it's true that some rooms and positions are better than others, but theyre likely to affect most speakers similarly.

4) Two ears and a brain are not a microphone and a computer, and what we see in a graph does not fully correlate with how we hear things. Research suggests that the measurements that most correlate with how we hear things are anechoic measurements. Experiments where researchers try to assess preference based off of in-room performance are less reliable than ones based on anechoic data -- even though in both cases the listeners are listening in a normal room. As you factor in the room, the data gets worse at predicting what people will actually like.

5) The above is largely because in room measurements don't take into account how the brain perceived data coming from different directions and with different timings differently. For example, two speakers can be calibrated to have an identical in-room response at the listening position, and yet still sound quite different largely because of their directivity properties. But it's also because in room measurements will tend to lack the resolution to identify narrow resonances and the like.

All this is to say that even though a speaker may be affected by the room, all the science shows that above bass frequencies, it is the speaker itself that seems to dominate our perception of tonality and our preference for speakers. There are some blurry lines -- I think wide directivity might sound better in some spaces tthan others, for instance -- but by an large the above explains why measurements are so important for assessing speaker performance.
 
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No. 5

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To me they are, once the speaker is done, the reviewer can’t change it.
But why can the same measurements that confirm a speaker's excellence to its designer not also confirm its excellence to a reviewer?
 

Chrispy

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But why can the same measurements that confirm a speaker's excellence to its designer not also confirm its excellence to a reviewer?
What are the reviewer's interests/goals/imperfections?
 

witwald

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In my experience an average speaker well positioned in a good room, will always measure better than a great speaker badly positioned in an bad room.
I expect that all of this depends on what defects the "bad" room has, and their effect on the listening experience. If we know that a room is "good", then it would make sense to also place a "great" speaker in there. Why even bother putting in an "average" speaker? Of course, one's purchasing budget will come into it. If you have a "bad" room, you can't really fix it with a "good" speaker, so there's no point in even trying that approach.
It is my experience that we listen more to the room than to the speakers.
I think I follow what you are trying to say here. However, I think it might be clearer to say that we listen to the end result of the loudspeaker–room interaction, but the main determinant of sound quality is the direct sound.

In his May 1976 article in Wireless World, "Some factors in loudspeaker quality", Harwood (BBC Research Department) observed:

"The conclusion therefore was that it is essentially the direct sound which determines the sound quality not the spherical response. The measurement of frequency response at various angles in a free-field room is therefore a much better indicator of performance than the spherical response even when listening in the reverberant field, and this has been confirmed by careful listening tests many times since."
 
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dfuller

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How do absorbers work particularly only for nulls? Really good low bass aborption can be difficult, probably better addressed by multiple subs.
You can't boost nulls away, so other solutions are necessary for nulls (tuned membrane absorbers or helmholtz resonators, for one; multiple subs placed judiciously for another).
 

Chrispy

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You can't boost nulls away, so other solutions are necessary for nulls (tuned membrane absorbers or helmholtz resonators, for one; multiple subs placed judiciously for another).
The multiple sub solution I find easiest :)
 
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