Marantz Cinema 30

[CCCC]

For the Cinema series, the lower the number the better: Cinema 30 > 40 > 50

I know. My question is what is more complete:

Cinema 40 + Model 50

Or

Cinema 30

The model 50 is an integrated stereo amp that I would connect to the Cinema 40

 

[EWL5]

I know. My question is what is more complete:

Cinema 40 + Model 50

Or

Cinema 30

The model 50 is an integrated stereo amp that I would connect to the Cinema 40

Sorry, I misread "Model 50"!
I would honestly just stick w/the single Cinema 30 setup. The Cinema 40 + Model 50 would be very minimal improvement, if any!

 

[Sal1950]

<ahem> <ahem> Marantz Marketing would call it sound attenuation polymer panels.

I wish Marantz would do away with that porthole display. I know it looks snazzy, but I can't see jack squat.

That's what the display under the flip-down door is for.
I'm an ole-timer and still like the porthole display, it harkins me back to the days of old.
I'd kill for a pair (or more) of Model 9 amps, maybe restomod'd as we say in the auto world?

I'm still waiting for Marantz to get off it's ass and bring out a replacement for the AV7706 pre/pro.
One that hopefully will use the updated and great measuring design of the AV10 that looked so stellar
on Amir's bench a few months back. We don't all need 15.4 channels and I'm very surprised that even the AV8805A
is till in the line-up? I'd be thrilled to replace my Denon X4700H with the big M's porthole.

 

[peng]

Considering that music is important… would a Cinema 40+Model 50 a better option than a Cinema 30?

I know. My question is what is more complete:

Cinema 40 + Model 50

Or

Cinema 30

The model 50 is an integrated stereo amp that I would connect to the Cinema 40

If you need an integrated amp then the 50 isn't bad, though for the same or less money there are better alternative.

If an avr is all you need, but you think the 50 would improve sq, then I think you can do better spending the money on contents that are known to have great quality of recording/mastering.

The C30, in a blind AB, is going to sound the same as the Model 50, based on specs and measurements. The so called trust your ears would work well, but only if the eyes stay clear. That's just me, surely others will tell you something different. Can you buy the 50 from an authorized dealer that has a good return policy, so that you can do you own in home auditioning?

 

[CCCC]

We do not know the measurements of Cinema 30 and Model 50. But please note that I am considering C40+M50 vs C30

 

[peng]

We do not know the measurements of Cinema 30 and Model 50. But please note that I am considering C40+M50 vs C30

We do know something about the measurements of the C30, irrc., it was mentioned in one of Audioholics YT review that mentioned the measurements by Marantz. For example, the SINAD was 107 dB, about the same as the AV10.

I am not aware of any published measurements of the M50, but we do have the measurements of a couple of the Marantz older flagship integrated amps such as the PM11S2 and PM11S3. The measurements of those are not as good as that of the Cinema 30. The Cinema 30 is also significantly more powerful than the Model 30. There's just no reason to believe the M30 would bring anything to the table, if your point is about audible sound quality improvements. That's just based on specs and measurements (to some extent, just projected measurements though). On the subjective side, people claimed what they claimed, believe what they believe, so in that case, one would have to choose to who to believe.

 

[peng]

@CCCC

How about the Cinema 30+the 3 channel version of the reviewed Apollon amp:

Apollon NCx500ST Stereo Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Apollon NCx500ST stereo class D amplifier based on Hypex NCOREx NCx500 modules. It was kindly drop shipped from the member and costs 1,090.00€ (US $1,168) with standard opamp. While the case is stamped aluminum, it is a heavily customized one...

www.audiosciencereview.com

With that combination, you will have among the best, probably top or near top 13.4 av preamp processor in terms of specs and measurements and can drive just about any speakers regardless of their sensitivity and EPDR specs!!

The Model 30's (again, not a bad integrated) 70 W is only good if you have the right speakers, do not sit too far and/or listen to any where near reference level. Once you get past the point of diminishing return/that is, specs that put the device well below the threshold of audibility for audio specs, voltage/current output will be king as it would let you avoid clipping under any practical listening conditions!!

 

[CCCC]

In fact I already have a power amp (NAD, 150w, 2 channels). The model 50 would replace it. All of this is just wondering if Model 50 would be better for music

 

[peng]

In fact I already have a power amp (NAD, 150w, 2 channels). The model 50 would replace it. All of this is just wondering if Model 50 would be better for music

For music the NAD amp would be fine but for movies, the center channel could have as much or more peak "power" requirements especially if it has low sensitivity and/or lower impedance/higher phase angles etc. As far as whether the Model 50 is better for music vs the C30, I would say there is no chance of that based on specs and measurements. Again, I know the M50 has not been measured by our respected test benches or Marantz's own but you can perhaps reference the measured PM11S3 that is the predecessor of the PM-10. Those are Marantz "reference" class amps, and you can see that the PM11S3 did not measure all that well vs even the C0 let alone the C30.

https://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/marantz-pm-11s3 (note: that is just an indicator, a projected one, it is possible that the M50 might measure better, just that is it an unknow at this point.

Subjectively, that does not mean the Model 50 won't be "better" for music for you. Without actually AB comparing those devices, we could only use our imagination, based on known facts, and that would typically mean specifications and measurements by our own trusted test benches such as Stereophile, ASR, Audioholics and occasionally SoundStagNetwork, HometheaterHifi etc.

 

[CCCC]

You are probably right, it is just that I have as a kind of dogma that integrated amps are better for music than receivers. Look at what AI says at this respect:

Integrated amplifiers are often considered better than receivers for music-focused audio systems due to several key reasons:

1. Dedicated Audio Focus: Integrated amplifiers are designed solely for amplifying audio, without the additional circuitry for video processing, radio tuners, and other features commonly found in receivers. This singular focus can lead to a cleaner, more direct signal path, which many audiophiles believe results in higher audio quality.
2. Higher Quality Components: Because integrated amplifiers are often targeted towards more discerning listeners, manufacturers might use higher quality audio components (like capacitors, resistors, and transformers) compared to those found in receivers, which must also allocate budget and space for video and networking features.
3. Less Interference: The lack of video processing and digital signal processing (DSP) circuits in integrated amplifiers can reduce the potential for electronic interference, which can degrade audio quality. The simpler internal design of an integrated amplifier can lead to a purer sound.
4. Better Power Supplies: Integrated amplifiers often have robust power supplies focused on delivering clean, stable power to the audio circuits. This can enhance the dynamic range and overall performance of the amplifier, especially at higher volumes or with more demanding speakers.
5. Sound Tuning: Manufacturers of integrated amplifiers might invest more in tuning the sound profile of the device to appeal to audiophiles, focusing on aspects like clarity, detail, and soundstage, which are critical for a high-quality music listening experience.
6. Build Quality: Integrated amplifiers, especially those from high-end audio brands, often boast superior build quality with heavy-duty chassis, high-quality connectors, and attention to details like vibration damping, all of which can contribute to better sound quality.
7. Simplicity and Purity: The straightforward design of integrated amplifiers, without the complexity of multiple input/output options, surround sound decoding, and video processing, is believed by many audiophiles to preserve the integrity and purity of the original audio signal.

It's important to note, however, that these advantages are generalizations and can vary between specific models and brands. Some high-end receivers might outperform entry-level integrated amplifiers in certain aspects.

 

[peng]

You are probably right, it is just that I have as a kind of dogma that integrated amps are better for music than receivers. Look at what AI says at this respect:

Integrated amplifiers are often considered better than receivers for music-focused audio systems due to several key reasons:

1. Dedicated Audio Focus: Integrated amplifiers are designed solely for amplifying audio, without the additional circuitry for video processing, radio tuners, and other features commonly found in receivers. This singular focus can lead to a cleaner, more direct signal path, which many audiophiles believe results in higher audio quality.
2. Higher Quality Components: Because integrated amplifiers are often targeted towards more discerning listeners, manufacturers might use higher quality audio components (like capacitors, resistors, and transformers) compared to those found in receivers, which must also allocate budget and space for video and networking features.
3. Less Interference: The lack of video processing and digital signal processing (DSP) circuits in integrated amplifiers can reduce the potential for electronic interference, which can degrade audio quality. The simpler internal design of an integrated amplifier can lead to a purer sound.
4. Better Power Supplies: Integrated amplifiers often have robust power supplies focused on delivering clean, stable power to the audio circuits. This can enhance the dynamic range and overall performance of the amplifier, especially at higher volumes or with more demanding speakers.
5. Sound Tuning: Manufacturers of integrated amplifiers might invest more in tuning the sound profile of the device to appeal to audiophiles, focusing on aspects like clarity, detail, and soundstage, which are critical for a high-quality music listening experience.
6. Build Quality: Integrated amplifiers, especially those from high-end audio brands, often boast superior build quality with heavy-duty chassis, high-quality connectors, and attention to details like vibration damping, all of which can contribute to better sound quality.
7. Simplicity and Purity: The straightforward design of integrated amplifiers, without the complexity of multiple input/output options, surround sound decoding, and video processing, is believed by many audiophiles to preserve the integrity and purity of the original audio signal.

It's important to note, however, that these advantages are generalizations and can vary between specific models and brands. Some high-end receivers might outperform entry-level integrated amplifiers in certain aspects.

I am very familiar with those points, and they do make sense, to a point. In my own experience though:

A) Those benefits don't usually translate into measurably or audibly improvement, in fact, often worse if you look at those ASR bench test results of integrated vs AVRs.

B) By the same arguments, separate dacs preamps, power amps will be even better, as the low signal preamp section in the integrated amp which be subjected to the unintended interaction with the high current power amp section.

C) AS often mentioned, AVRs outsell integrateds by a huge margin so manufacturer costs are much lower, all else being equal, such as in terms of $/high quality watts.

I have many amps, but only one integrated, as I don't like to compromise if I don't have to, so I went with separates.

It seems to me you believe in integrated's inherent benefits, so to avoid second guessing afterwards, I would suggest you go with the C40+M50 For me, I would say the C30 is a no brainer decision. If more power is needed, I would just add a real power amp, avr+integratec seems ineffective, kind of weird to me, even with the HT bypass feature, but of course ymmv.

 

[Shimrra Jamaane]

Sigh, I'm in a position where in the midterm future I'm going to really want 4 independent sub outputs because my setup is now all prepared to easily add a 3rd and then 4th sub to fit into all 4 corners of my room. So if I want to do that I'm going to need to "upgrade" from my current Integra 8.4 which is otherwise perfect for my use case in every other freaking way. So do we know enough about the Cinema 30 internals as to how its processing and all that mostly imperceptible stuff in particular compares to whatever the new Integra uses? I use an external buckeye amp for my LCR so I'm not so much concerned about the power, but I currently use the balanced outputs which are on the Integra for that and my two subs despite not knowing if it makes one bit of difference compared to unbalanced outputs to be honest.

Ideally the AV-10 is right there but the $7,000 and then the additional cost in Dirac license and external amps (so easily another $2,000) I'll need for my current surrounds and future atmos is just ugggh compared to the $4500 (+Dirac license) for a Cinema 30. And I can make back at least a couple grand selling the Integra with its Dirac Bass license so it's not crippling.

And I guess the elephant in the room is the x6800 for even cheaper and technically the same capabilities but I leery of it being in literally the same chassis as the step down x4800 unlike the Cinema 30 which is a much larger piece of equipment than the step down Cinema 40.

 

[pkgriffith814]

Sigh, I'm in a position where in the midterm future I'm going to really want 4 independent sub outputs because my setup is now all prepared to easily add a 3rd and then 4th sub to fit into all 4 corners of my room. So if I want to do that I'm going to need to "upgrade" from my current Integra 8.4 which is otherwise perfect for my use case in every other freaking way. So do we know enough about the Cinema 30 internals as to how its processing and all that mostly imperceptible stuff in particular compares to whatever the new Integra uses? I use an external buckeye amp for my LCR so I'm not so much concerned about the power, but I currently use the balanced outputs which are on the Integra for that and my two subs despite not knowing if it makes one bit of difference compared to unbalanced outputs to be honest.

Ideally the AV-10 is right there but the $7,000 and then the additional cost in Dirac license and external amps (so easily another $2,000) I'll need for my current surrounds and future atmos is just ugggh compared to the $4500 (+Dirac license) for a Cinema 30. And I can make back at least a couple grand selling the Integra with its Dirac Bass license so it's not crippling.

And I guess the elephant in the room is the x6800 for even cheaper and technically the same capabilities but I leery of it being in literally the same chassis as the step down x4800 unlike the Cinema 30 which is a much larger piece of equipment than the step down Cinema 40.

I was in the same position. Bought the Denon A1H on accessories4less for the price of a Cinema 30. Use the XLRs for sub 1, LF,C, RF and two rca for the other two subs. Love it so far.

 

[peng]

Sigh, I'm in a position where in the midterm future I'm going to really want 4 independent sub outputs because my setup is now all prepared to easily add a 3rd and then 4th sub to fit into all 4 corners of my room. So if I want to do that I'm going to need to "upgrade" from my current Integra 8.4 which is otherwise perfect for my use case in every other freaking way. So do we know enough about the Cinema 30 internals as to how its processing and all that mostly imperceptible stuff in particular compares to whatever the new Integra uses? I use an external buckeye amp for my LCR so I'm not so much concerned about the power, but I currently use the balanced outputs which are on the Integra for that and my two subs despite not knowing if it makes one bit of difference compared to unbalanced outputs to be honest.

Ideally the AV-10 is right there but the $7,000 and then the additional cost in Dirac license and external amps (so easily another $2,000) I'll need for my current surrounds and future atmos is just ugggh compared to the $4500 (+Dirac license) for a Cinema 30. And I can make back at least a couple grand selling the Integra with its Dirac Bass license so it's not crippling.

And I guess the elephant in the room is the x6800 for even cheaper and technically the same capabilities but I leery of it being in literally the same chassis as the step down x4800 unlike the Cinema 30 which is a much larger piece of equipment than the step down Cinema 40.

Have you considered the A1H? It has XLRs for 4 subs, or use them for you buckeye LCR and us the RCSs for the sub, a little cheaper than the AV10 but maybe not as good looking to you.

 

[Shimrra Jamaane]

Have you considered the A1H? It has XLRs for 4 subs, or use them for you buckeye LCR and us the RCSs for the sub, a little cheaper than the AV10 but maybe not as good looking to you.

I had kind of forgotten all about that option. It's definitely interesting but I had kind of put aside the idea a while ago because I'm under the impression that it can run pretty hot and so the fans are correspondingly audible. This won't be in some rack, it'll be right under my TV on a shelf that's completely open to allow airflow to all the stuff I have. Am I incorrect on that fan noise?

 

[peng]

I had kind of forgotten all about that option. It's definitely interesting but I had kind of put aside the idea a while ago because I'm under the impression that it can run pretty hot and so the fans are correspondingly audible. This won't be in some rack, it'll be right under my TV on a shelf that's completely open to allow airflow to all the stuff I have. Am I incorrect on that fan noise?

I have had Denon avrs that had fans and they had never turned on. If they ever did, you could put a quiet fan (such as one of Noctua) on top or blowfrom tbe rear, and the fan will then never turn on again.

The AVM90, that competes with the AV10 have fan too, sometimes they are there just in case.

 

[Shimrra Jamaane]

Is the A1H DAC the same as the one in the AV10?

 

[Oddball]

Denon has pretty high threshold for heat alarm in their 3-6x00H design. It’s really a small box after all crammed with all kinds of heat emitting stuff. Not really best design feature but it does apparently work. Not sure how long though. Does not seem like a 10 year design.

If judged by 6700h, AC infinity fan will be on for the most part of operation on default settings in a room set to 24 C even if in pre-amp mode with amps doing 50-ish watts of power consumption. Seems that AV 30 was reported to generate less heat. Bigger box 8500HA and A1H also have a better heat management than smaller boxers cousins.

AV-10 is fanless design in a pretty huge box. Never gets really more than a bit warm. Heat management like one would want to see in a reference unit. And without need for fans, just in case, or otherwise.

 

[peng]

Is the A1H DAC the same as the one in the AV10?

Yes, same DAC and volume control ICs. A1H just skipped the HDAMs. Masimo's video showed very similar SINAD measurements.

The quiet fan I used, still using it with my Anthem AVM70, is the Noctua NF-S12A:
It is more expensive, but much quieter than the AC Infinity ones, in fact you can hardly hear it at low speed even when you are a few inches from it.

Amazon.ca

• Ultra low noise fan, 120x120x25 mm, 12V, 3-pin Molex, 800/600 RPM, max. 8.6 dB(A), >150,000 h MTTF

 

[peng]

I had kind of forgotten all about that option. It's definitely interesting but I had kind of put aside the idea a while ago because I'm under the impression that it can run pretty hot and so the fans are correspondingly audible. This won't be in some rack, it'll be right under my TV on a shelf that's completely open to allow airflow to all the stuff I have. Am I incorrect on that fan noise?

You can also ask @pkgriffith814 (who just bought one) about fan noise.