Lack of 2.1 support is grinding my gears

[sweetchaos]

I do have a question on the Dirac Live Bass Control, is one of the DIRAC features act like a Hi/Low pass filter and prevent the low freq. from the mains ?

High/Low pass filters are a feature of the AVR/pre-pro's bass management or standalone Dirac Live device (such as MiniDSP):

Setting crossovers in an AVR/pre-pro with Dirac Live 2 room correction

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

There are such stuff,packing lots of functionality and as reliability is really important (as it includes levels,slopes,etc) it is better not to cut corners.
I firmly believe one gets what pays for in the long term.
Example:

View attachment 338844

I firmly believe, that in the audiophile world, that attitude leads to being ripped off.

We’ve seen plenty of DACs measured here costing well into 4 figures which perform less-well than those costing just over £100.

 

[Sokel]

I firmly believe, that in the audiophile world, that attitude leads to being ripped off.

We’ve seen plenty of DACs measured here costing well into 4 figures which perform less-well than those costing just over £100.

Cost is a boring conversation,do you want to talk about quality,reliability,robust after sale service,etc instead?
M66 packs more than 5-6 devices and I expect it to measure more than decently compared to similar chain.

Note*,I said chain,so streamer,DAC,phono,pre,active x-over,EQ,RC,etc,etc with every possible connection.
Straight up a similar chain of seperates,do all the work,establish a nice gain structure,a bunch of fool-proof and worst case protections,measure it and then we can talk.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Cost is a boring conversation…

…in which case it was quite odd for you to bring it up.

 

[Sokel]

…in which case it was quite odd for you to bring it up.

Where did I do that?
My post was about measurements.only.
My reply thought was about your economic analysis,which is just a side talk to a technical forum.

Measurements are hard data,cost isn't that's why is boring.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Where did I do that?

Erm...

I firmly believe one gets what pays for in the long term.

 

[EJ3]

There are such stuff,packing lots of functionality and as reliability is really important (as it includes levels,slopes,etc) it is better not to cut corners.
I firmly believe one gets what pays for in the long term.

For sure, you will never get what you don't pay for!
Example: buying cheap! gear.
In-expensive is one thing but
getting the cheapest that you can, there are always more quality cuts than you can see.

 

[Sokel]

Erm...

That's the reply I talk about,to the previous one where cost was on the first sentence.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

That's the reply I talk about,to the previous one where cost was on the first sentence.

Your claim that both statements are true causes epistemological problems, of sufficient magnitude as to lay upon the logical and semantic resources of the English language a heavier burden than they can reasonably be expected to bear.

 

[dannut]

But it’s driving me nuts. Look at the cheap Topping DACs which are transparent to the source, and cost very (very, very) low three figures. Add 50% to that price, and surely they’d sell like hot cakes.

What in the name of Kylie’s gold hot pants is going on!

Its the mentality of the whole industry - everyone is doing what everyone else is doing. NO innovation what-so-ever. Thankfully ASR 'nugded' some (mostly chifi) manufacturers to respect signal hygiene, that is almost 'free'. Next step would be to apply best practices in acoustics to every product: no EQ on a headphone dac/amp? Headless panther. No bass management/delay/EQ on an all-in-one system (that is everything except a dedicated power amp btw) - headless panther.

Sound doesn't take care of itself just like that. There needs to be a solution, that can implement best practices in acoustics. Case in point - why only Quedelix and RME can make a usable headphone amp? Why a 2ch system needs an AVR to properly implement subwoofers (a must-have in the modal region) and oh why only the most expensive ones comes with a correct type of EQ? (in auto-eq land anything under MulieqXT32/DIRAC is useless. Well some obscure manufacturer has PEQ in the sub channel - can anyone name that brand??)

 

[Sokel]

Your claim that both statements are true causes epistemological problems, of sufficient magnitude as to lay upon the logical and semantic resources of the English language a heavier burden than they can reasonably be expected to bear.

I have to apologize then,my English is very poor (obviously,I have admitted it lots of times).

But to me it is as there it is as personal as it gets and no one can quantify it unless there are all the data which lead to that.
And sadly (and boringly) some of that data are subjective.How can someone quantify greed?Or how can someone predict a plan to demolish competition with low prices only to up them right after?

If we get to real deep cost analysis we will need more than Amir's and the other experts expertise to get a meaningful insight.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

I have to apologize then,my English is very poor (obviously,I have admitted it lots of times).

But to me it is as there it is as personal as it gets and no one can quantify it unless there are all the data which lead to that.
And sadly (and boringly) some of that data are subjective.How can someone quantify greed?Or how can someone predict a plan to demolish competition with low prices only to up them right after?

If we get to real deep cost analysis we will need more than Amir's and the other experts expertise to get a meaningful insight.

Your English is far better than my…whatever your native language is.

 

[Sokel]

Your English is far better than my…whatever your native language is.

I think the best part of them was not through education but love,many years ago
(hope she's well wherever she is)

 

[dominikz]

One thing I'd like to add is that it seems to me importance of DAC and amplifier raw audio performance is often overstated in 'objective' audiophile circles.
We don't really need anywhere close to 120dB SINAD to reach audible transparency in the vast majority of practical use-cases, especially not when used with loudspeakers in typical residential rooms (assuming optimal gain-staging, naturally).

E.g. in reality many residential rooms will have 40-ish dB SPL background noise, so SINAD of about ~80dB allows us to play perfectly transparently up to 120dB SPL (threshold of pain).
In reality even much less can still be perceived as transparent since people often have noisier rooms and/or don't listen very loud. This is why most of the non-broken consumer audio electronics work perfectly fine in most cases.

Naturally this is a bit of an oversimplification for the purpose of brevity, but I genuinely think it is useful to think along these lines to calibrate expectations. I guess it is also a clue why 16-bit resolution was initialy selected as standard for digital audio

While I can understand the "peace of mind" apeal of high(er) performing electronics, a function like room EQ will bring much more audible benefit in practice than a few more dB of SINAD.

I guess this is all part of the reason why the WiiM Amp looks like it might be such an amazing value in the current market, even if the amp section doesn't top the SINAD chart. Also why many AVRs are great value too.

On the topic of subwoofer integration, there are several feasible approaches with regard to crossover implementation, and in my experience most of them can result in good integration - but measuring is critical, and it is good to have some flexibility in positioning.
As stated by a few other members, room EQ / PEQ is critical for good quality bass - IMHO much more so than the selected subwoofer crossover approach.

 

[sgent]

Just to add, NAD has a variety of 2.1 amps. Any of the C amps (which are already 2.1) which can take an expansion card can get a full PEQ and Dirac for $300. The 3045 also has a high pass filter and subout but is less adjustable.

 

[BobbyTimmons]

One thing I'd like to add is that it seems to me importance of DAC and amplifier raw audio performance is often overstated in 'objective' audiophile circles.
We don't really need anywhere close to 120dB SINAD to reach audible transparency in the vast majority of practical use-cases, especially not when used with loudspeakers in typical residential rooms (assuming optimal gain-staging, naturally).

You won't even hear a difference with an 8th generation DAC - ADC conversion. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-choose-the-8th-generation-digital-copy.6827/

 

[aagstn]

I firmly believe, that in the audiophile world, that attitude leads to being ripped off.

We’ve seen plenty of DACs measured here costing well into 4 figures which perform less-well than those costing just over £100.

Companies like PS Audio among others seem designed to take advantage of people with the "you have to spend a fortune to have good audio" mindset.

 

[cpachris]

This device seems ideal if the goal is moving from 2.0 to 2.1, and having the ability to high-pass the mains. Signal stays all analog. This even lets you low pass the sub signal differently than the high pass to fine tune results. And a bypass to let you quickly hear the difference in full signal to everything vs what you've played with on the cross-overs. Pricey though.

CR-1

CR-1: Active Subwoofer Crossover The lucky few who have heard a well-integrated subwoofer in a great audio system know that the subwoofer's effect is profound. While everyone expects the bass extension to improve, most are shocked at the transformation that occurs in the main speakers. They...

www.jlaudio.com

I have not had any experience with the device, but it seems like the still missing piece is that there would still be no way to handle time alignment with the subs...unless delaying the subs was the right direction. But I would guess with the DSP going into a lot of the subs these days, that needing to delay the mains would be what was needed.

 

[EJ3]

This device seems ideal if the goal is moving from 2.0 to 2.1, and having the ability to high-pass the mains. Signal stays all analog. This even lets you low pass the sub signal differently than the high pass to fine tune results. And a bypass to let you quickly hear the difference in full signal to everything vs what you've played with on the cross-overs. Pricey though.

CR-1

CR-1: Active Subwoofer Crossover The lucky few who have heard a well-integrated subwoofer in a great audio system know that the subwoofer's effect is profound. While everyone expects the bass extension to improve, most are shocked at the transformation that occurs in the main speakers. They...

www.jlaudio.com

I have not had any experience with the device, but it seems like the still missing piece is that there would still be no way to handle time alignment with the subs...unless delaying the subs was the right direction. But I would guess with the DSP going into a lot of the subs these days, that needing to delay the mains would be what was needed.

I built my subs & they are floor firing. I wonder...

 

[waynel]

This device seems ideal if the goal is moving from 2.0 to 2.1, and having the ability to high-pass the mains. Signal stays all analog. This even lets you low pass the sub signal differently than the high pass to fine tune results. And a bypass to let you quickly hear the difference in full signal to everything vs what you've played with on the cross-overs. Pricey though.

CR-1

CR-1: Active Subwoofer Crossover The lucky few who have heard a well-integrated subwoofer in a great audio system know that the subwoofer's effect is profound. While everyone expects the bass extension to improve, most are shocked at the transformation that occurs in the main speakers. They...

www.jlaudio.com

I have not had any experience with the device, but it seems like the still missing piece is that there would still be no way to handle time alignment with the subs...unless delaying the subs was the right direction. But I would guess with the DSP going into a lot of the subs these days, that needing to delay the mains would be what was needed.

Nah, I had one and moved to a minidsp solution which is way better. Digital signal from streamer goes to minidsp SHD studio and digital out goes to Okto DAC8 pro, cheaper, much better(noise and distortion) and way more flexible.

I also have a cheaper version on this for my living room system, streamer digital out to nanodigi to two cheap but high performing SMSL DACs.

fine tuning of delay for multiple subs is essential.