Lack of 2.1 support is grinding my gears

[Middle Earth]

I'm still hoping someone smarter explains how it would work, but I think you need two stereo converters in one box to properly handle high passing mains and low passing subwoofer. The digital signal comes in, a computer chip of some kind modifies that signal to high pass or low pass. That modified signal then gets converted to analog. Perhaps look at some of the pro audio recording devices that would allow you to run multiple outs (MOTU, Universal Audio, etc). It's a little convoluted, but you could likely achieve all of the desired effects with plug-ins.

There are such external active cross-overs that are mentioned up there in the thread
All you need is one analog signal out of one DAC. Some speakers and some amps do it. Most every active subwoofer does it.
Just getting to 2.1 is easy. The only reason a low pass works so well on an amp, is that if affords the direction of the most power, the low Hz, to the sub.
Just having one subwoofer should be sub-optimal acoustically. You could treat your room like mad or use the four subs and far less low frequency treatment.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

I have thought a lot about this issue. Subwoofer control is not a simple deal. Room acoustics are just as important as anything discussed herein.
I am coming to believe that experts recommending four subwoofers in the corners with bass traps, and sound absorbers, especially in smaller rooms like I have makes the most sense.

A true six channel amplifier like this one from Buckeye could be the answer for me with four eight inch ported and tuned subwoofers and two two-way or three-way speakers with simple low pass filters of 80 to 100hz and some bass boxes and room treatment and I should be GTG.
Simple

Hypex NC252MP Amplifier, 6-channel​

$1,275.00 (You can get more power but 8” subs should be fine)

plus x4 of these in line with the four 8” subs

Parts Express 80 Hz Low Pass 8 Ohm Crossover

Parts Express 80 Hz Low Pass 8 Ohm CrossoverConvenient crossovers that work great in any application requiring economical and flexible filtering. Also for use in car stereo installations with component speaker systems. Low pass, band pass, and high pass models complement woofers, midranges, and...

www.parts-express.com

Done or not as this may the solution I believe it is or I will change my mind.

The one fundamental disagreement I have is the idea that room acoustics are as important as everything else.

They’re not. That’s not to say they aren’t important, and more important than many things in the electronics side.

But a great speaker in a bad, untreated room will sound better than a bad speaker in the same room, unless it’s a bizarre room.

And few rooms are bad enough to reduce the quality of great speaker so much that it sounds worse than a poor speaker in a great room.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

I'm still hoping someone smarter explains how it would work, but I think you need two stereo converters in one box to properly handle high passing mains and low passing subwoofer. The digital signal comes in, a computer chip of some kind modifies that signal to high pass or low pass. That modified signal then gets converted to analog. Perhaps look at some of the pro audio recording devices that would allow you to run multiple outs (MOTU, Universal Audio, etc). It's a little convoluted, but you could likely achieve all of the desired effects with plug-ins.

I’m not joking. I’m not making this up. The WiiM amp literally does this with one chip.

 

[anotherhobby]

The one fundamental disagreement I have is the idea that room acoustics are as important as everything else.

They’re not. That’s not to say they aren’t important, and more important than many things in the electronics side.

But a great speaker in a bad, untreated room will sound better than a bad speaker in the same room, unless it’s a bizarre room.

And few rooms are bad enough to reduce the quality of great speaker so much that it sounds worse than a poor speaker in a great room.

For frequencies below about 250 Hz, room acoustics are as important as everything else. It's not a good speaker vs a bad speaker thing, it's a matter of frequency range.

EDIT: This post came out in a way that I don't agree with myself. I was thinking correcting for room acoustics in that range with DSP is as important as everything else, but somehow posted that crossed out line. I do, however, thing that room acoustics/treatment are a huge upgrade to any system if possible. Is it half? Probably not, so I agree with Yorkshire Mouth on this one.

 

[Middle Earth]

For frequencies below about 250 Hz, room acoustics are as important as everything else. It's not a good speaker vs a bad speaker thing, it's a matter of frequency range.

100% agree with that
I have a 8 X 16 space.
The good news is that it is a rectangle.
The bad news is that it is small.
Even at 80 Hz yikes.
The four 8 inch subwoofers with bass traps and absorption panels will make a huge difference In bass control.
The answer to the OP‘s question has been asked and answered in various ways.
Which all would work.

 

[anotherhobby]

100% agree with that
I have a 8 X 16 space.
The good news is that it is a rectangle.
The bad news is that it is small.
Even at 80 Hz yikes.
The four 8 inch subwoofers with bass traps and absorption panels will make a huge difference In bass control.
The answer to the OP‘s question has been asked and answered in various ways.
Which all would work.

Yeah, I have the same problem with my rooms too - small rectangles are not good acoustically. DSP is my only option. I wish I was rich and could build a nice big room with near-perfect acoustics though - that would be amazing.

 

[D2013]

At the low frequencies a subwoofer excels at, dealing with environment acoustic issues is as important as anything else imo.

 

[ooheadsoo]

Seems like you really want to use your dac of choice rather than relying on the built in solution boxes. What I used for this, (still do until I can get my HT set up) is a now discontinued MiniDSP 2x8 Nanodigi. It'll spit out 8 digital outputs, and you can go to town buying all the dacs you want I think you should be able to find them on the used market if you want to give it a whirl.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Seems like you really want to use your dac of choice rather than relying on the built in solution boxes. What I used for this, (still do until I can get my HT set up) is a now discontinued MiniDSP 2x8 Nanodigi. It'll spit out 8 digital outputs, and you can go to town buying all the dacs you want I think you should be able to find them on the used market if you want to give it a whirl.

For me, if the DAC is transparent, I don’t care either way.

I have a Topping EX5. If I were to buy the WiiM Pro Plus it doesn’t measure as well as the EX5, but it does measure as transparent, so I wouldn’t just automatically use the EX5 for numbers I can’t hear.

 

[dasdoing]

audio interface with more than 2 outputs
EQ-APO
done

 

[ooheadsoo]

Minidsp products were brought up right at the beginning of the thread and your objection was that they did a DA conversion.

 

[anotherhobby]

Minidsp products were brought up right at the beginning of the thread and your objection was that they did a DA conversion.

It appears the main objection could also be that it's not a WiiM.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Minidsp products were brought up right at the beginning of the thread and your objection was that they did a DA conversion.

That was one of my issues. The other was cost.

But further, my objection - and I suppose this is the point of the thread - is that it should be unnecessary.

We have a forum here, we keep an eye on the measurements of DACs and amps because we want to see how well they perform. But then so many members end up driving speakers from AV amps because of their dsp functionality, ability to select crossovers, etc.

There appears to be a market out there for something like an AV amp, but 2.1 - indeed, Marantz and Denon have such units, but they measure appallingly.

Look at this :

Marantz NR1510 AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of Marantz NR1510 5.2 4K slim Home Theater AV Receiver. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $799. I have been wanting to test a slim AVR for a long time as they much better fit under a TV in a living room than the monster that regular AVR...

audiosciencereview.com

Functionally, it’s exactly what we want apart from being 5.1 instead of 2.1, but it measures so poorly.

Then this:

Marantz NR1200 Stereo Receiver Review

This is a review and measurements of Marantz NR1200 slim 2-chnannel stereo receiver with network capability (D&M HEOS, AirPlay2, Spotify connect, etc.). Marantz USA sells this in their online store for US$599. I bought mine from a dealer in Tokyo in January 2021 for 62,000JPY. Amir once...

audiosciencereview.com

Now there’s your 2.1, but again it’s woeful.

Similar story here:

Denon PMA-600NE Integrated Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon PMA-600NE integrated amplifier with Bluetooth support and DAC. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $499. I like the look of the unit especially for the price. Somewhat dismayed though that the input selector is not lined up with...

audiosciencereview.com

I’m just noting the gap in the market.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

It appears the main objection could also be that it's not a WiiM.

That’s really a misunderstanding and misreading of my comments.

I’m not a WiiM fanboy (in the way that some seem to be Minidsp fanboys), I think we can do better than the WiiM amp. Indeed, that’s the whole point. What I’m saying is that the WiiM amp is fairly unique, but that it should have stiff competition. WiiM are not hi-fi manufacturers, they’re streamer manufacturers. Topping and SMSL are hi-fi manufacturers who are more than capable of making a ‘WiiM Amp without the streamer’. So that means a 2.1 DAC-amp.

BTW, I’ve asked a question at the WiiM forums, and apparently they’re working on room correction software.

The new WiiM Ultra arrives in a few months, and if it does everything (as the name suggests), and does it as well as the WiiM Pro Plus, that’d be excellent. But I'd like to see some competition.

What’s wrong with that.

 

[MrOtto]

I would like to see a DAC/Headamp/Preamp combo like Topping DX-series with digital domain DSP (not ADC-DSP-DAC) with high-pass/low-pass filter for the XLR/RCA output.
Will probably be exspensive, DX9 costs $1300 and has not this feature.

 

[MrOtto]

https://www.jbl.com/studio-monitors/LSR310S-.html?dwvar_LSR310S-_color=Black-GLOBAL-Current

$299 refurbished.

200W is propably very conservative with more headroom, compared to other brands bloated numbers.

I use this on 60% gain with 305P mkII on 60% gain (-2dB trebble). I'm upgrading to JBL 308P mkii now. Subwoofer provides enough bass on this gain. More would not be "musical". Plenty headroom, I can't understand why I would need a "bigger, bloated numbers" subwoofer.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

I would like to see a DAC/Headamp/Preamp combo like Topping DX-series with digital domain DSP (not ADC-DSP-DAC) with high-pass/low-pass filter for the XLR/RCA output.
Will probably be exspensive, DX9 costs $1300 and has not this feature.

I have the EX5 DAC/Headphone Amp/Preamp.

Once again, I’m not sure I agree with your pricing. WiiM have announced they’re putting dsp room correction in all models, and that includes the £80 Mini. When introduced, the WiiM Amp will have dsp, PEQ, and sub out with bass management for £300. And that includes an amp!

Topping have a track record of producing great kit cheaply.

 

[MrOtto]

How many outputs does Wiim Mini have? So you would run monitors on Digital out and subwoofer on 3.5mm out on Wiim Mini?

Stop complaining about the price and just buy the Wiim Amp. Thread ended.

 

[BobbyTimmons]

The one fundamental disagreement I have is the idea that room acoustics are as important as everything else.

They’re not. That’s not to say they aren’t important, and more important than many things in the electronics side.

But a great speaker in a bad, untreated room will sound better than a bad speaker in the same room, unless it’s a bizarre room.

And few rooms are bad enough to reduce the quality of great speaker so much that it sounds worse than a poor speaker in a great room.

That doesn't fit with my anecdotal experience. Well positioned bad speakers in a good room can sound pretty good and badly positioned good speakers in a bad room are not always great.

 

[BobbyTimmons]

I was toying with the idea of JBL monitors. They gave a matching sub. Your balanced DAC goes into the sub, which extract the bass, then passes the higher frequencies on to the monitors, again over balanced cables.

How is that different than how it's been for studio subs for donkeys years?