Rational upgrade / rebuild of my stereo system

[SKE]

Hi guys,

I am a new member to this forum, but I have read many of the reviews provided here over the last few years since I am very interested in good audio. I did treat myself with an "analog" stereo system a few years ago but while I read a lot of reviews and did somewhat of excessive comparisons I ultimately might have chosen the "wrong" base of information aka non-scientific reviews back when I bought my setup.

The main usecases of my system are:
- listening to music, mostly streaming
- audio output for movies / TV

Currently I use a Qaudral A10s amp, which appealed me since it contains a dual-mono setup and already has a DAC (dual optical in), streaming functionality. It came quite cheap in slightly used condition. It turns out that the streaming provided by the in-house app is rather crappy so I stream music with a chromecast + optical. The amp appears to be somewhat noisy at zero level which cannot be heard at the listening distance of approx. 3 meters.

My speakers are Heco Direkt, which are a german brand 2-way with a relatively large volume. They can go to quite significant levels (when needed ) and also came quite cheap in used condition.

My room is not treated and I think that it is a relatively difficult one since it is approximately 40 m² in size and its height ranges from 3 m on one side to about 6 m on the other side. The system needs to sit in a corner at the lower (3 m) roof-level

What am I missing? Hard to say, the high frequencies could be somewhat crisper and while my speakers do actually provide reasonable low end the volume needs to be cranked somewhat to obtain it (e. g. for movies). Plus I guess putting more focus on actual measurements might improve the sound experience.

So the question would be what to change and if changes are made, why not switch to actually well measuring hardware

So the options that come to my mind would be:
1 - leave everything as-is
2 - like 1 but add a sub
3 - sell the speakers and get LS50 / R3 and a sub
4 - sell everything and get Neumann KH120 + KH750 dsp
5 - others?

3 & 4: am I maybe thinking too small for the size of the room?
4: Will well measuring monitors do the trick anyway or are those not really appropriate for the job
5: Do you guys have any suggestions? I am considering of spending rougly 2-3k on everything (2k should be approx what i expect from selling my current setup.

 

[Power Pop 23]

Hi guys,

I am a new member to this forum, but I have read many of the reviews provided here over the last few years since I am very interested in good audio. I did treat myself with an "analog" stereo system a few years ago but while I read a lot of reviews and did somewhat of excessive comparisons I ultimately might have chosen the "wrong" base of information aka non-scientific reviews back when I bought my setup.

The main usecases of my system are:
- listening to music, mostly streaming
- audio output for movies / TV

Currently I use a Qaudral A10s amp, which appealed me since it contains a dual-mono setup and already has a DAC (dual optical in), streaming functionality. It came quite cheap in slightly used condition. It turns out that the streaming provided by the in-house app is rather crappy so I stream music with a chromecast + optical. The amp appears to be somewhat noisy at zero level which cannot be heard at the listening distance of approx. 3 meters.

My speakers are Heco Direkt, which are a german brand 2-way with a relatively large volume. They can go to quite significant levels (when needed ) and also came quite cheap in used condition.

My room is not treated and I think that it is a relatively difficult one since it is approximately 40 m² in size and its height ranges from 3 m on one side to about 6 m on the other side. The system needs to sit in a corner at the lower (3 m) roof-level

What am I missing? Hard to say, the high frequencies could be somewhat crisper and while my speakers do actually provide reasonable low end the volume needs to be cranked somewhat to obtain it (e. g. for movies). Plus I guess putting more focus on actual measurements might improve the sound experience.

So the question would be what to change and if changes are made, why not switch to actually well measuring hardware

So the options that come to my mind would be:
1 - leave everything as-is
2 - like 1 but add a sub
3 - sell the speakers and get LS50 / R3 and a sub
4 - sell everything and get Neumann KH120 + KH750 dsp
5 - others?

3 & 4: am I maybe thinking too small for the size of the room?
4: Will well measuring monitors do the trick anyway or are those not really appropriate for the job
5: Do you guys have any suggestions? I am considering of spending rougly 2-3k on everything (2k should be approx what i expect from selling my current setup.

Consider whether there is a way you can apply Parametric EQ or Room Correction to the signal path to your existing equipment to assess the impact. If you are not satisfied with the resulting sound, consider auditioning other loudspeaker options, including with and without a subwoofer. Lastly, consider a change to amplification if using passive loudspeakers.

Welcome to ASR !

 

[dominikz]

Let me start by saying that if you're happy with what you have IMHO there is no need to change anything!

If you're however interested to see how much improvement you can potentially get, I'd first suggest to invest in a calibrated measuring microphone (e.g. miniDSP UMIK-1) and learn to use REW software and MMM measurement technique to see what kind of in-room response you're getting and to be able to precisely correct any bass resonances with PEQ.

Optimizing loudspeaker and listening position placement to avoid/minimize bass response dips (mainly SBIR and LBIR induced null avoidance) and using PEQ to bring down bass response peaks can work wonders and is IMHO one of the biggest upgrades one can make to their system. I'd personally only look into further upgrades if you can't get a satisfactory result with this.

Perhaps you'll also find the references linked in this post useful. Good luck!

 

[SKE]

@Power Pop 23, dominikz

Thanks for those quick responses!
Actually I did not yet think about trying to adjust my EQ/Room using what I already have. I do have an audio interface and a Rhode NT-1 microphone that I use for work. The mic, however is directonal. Can I still use it or do I need to get my hands on a different one?
If so I will have some time to play with it on the weekend

 

[dominikz]

Directional microphones might a) have a roll-off in low frequencies, and b) would misrepresent the proportion of reflections vs direct sound in the measured response (compared to an omnidirectional microphone).
In addition, due to a lack of individual calibration you won't know if the response you measure is accurate or not, and by how much - basically you will lack a reference.

That being said, I compared responses measured with my calibrated measurement microphone to my Rode NT2A (in omni mode) in this post.
In my opinion you can definitely use the Rode NT1 to learn how to measure and how to use REW, but I'd still suggest to buy or borrow a calibrated omnidirectional measurement microphone so you have more confidence in the results you get.

 

[ZolaIII]

Your speakers are fine and probably is rest you already have.

Binaural blind comparison test of 4 loudspeakers - II

Maybe the results make the Heco a steal at € 1600 a pair (current price) My exact thoughts, beautiful design, acoustic advantages of the wide baffle, good drivers (Heco/Magnat uses Klippel tools and software to optimise them) and measurements and seemingly a nice tuning for a really good price...

www.audiosciencereview.com

You do need a measurement microphone to see what it's happening. You could use cheap Beringer one as you already have audio interface but then you will also need reliable SPL meter so if you can get UMIK-1 that would be preferable.
On the long run something like MiniDSP Flex HT would be a good idea but take it step by step.
Edit: seams adding one sub would be sufficient as ideal crossover is 80 Hz for those speakers.

 

[Ron Texas]

@SKE you have a huge room and speakers with a 5" mid woofer (LS50, KH120) will not fill it. Also, Neumann is designed for near field listening. Perhaps you should look at the Wharfdale Linton 85th anniversary speaker. Actually, your existing speakers look pretty good. I suspect integrating a sub with your existing electronics will be difficult.

 

[DVDdoug]

Speakers have the biggest effect on sound quality. If the highs are a little weak you can boost with EQ (or a simple treble control). Graphic EQ is also fine. Parametric EQ is more important for more precise tweaking, usually to correct for room resonances in the lower frequencies.

...Boosting the bass isn't always so easy because bass needs big woofers & more amplifier power than other frequencies and you can end-up pushing the amplifier and/or speakers into distortion. And standing wave nodes in the room (where direct & reflected waves cancel) are almost impossible to overcome with EQ. However you can knock-down anti-nodes where the bass builds-up excessively.

my speakers do actually provide reasonable low end the volume needs to be cranked somewhat to obtain it (e. g. for movies).

With movies, the stereo and surround channels contain regular bass but the "point one" LFE (Low Frequency Effects) channel ONLY goes to a subwoofer and it's lost in the downmix. AVRs have "bass management" which can optionally send all of the bass to the sub if your other speakers are not full-range. (Most people don't want 5 or more large full-range speakers in their living room.)

IMO - Surround adds a LOT to movies (I "only" have 5.1) and I use a "hall" or "theater" setting with regular stereo music to send some delayed reverb to the rear channels for the "feel" of a larger room. ...That's sacrilegious to high-fidelity purists, but I like it!

 

[JeremyFife]

I'd echo and support the comments about making some measurements. Even using your existing mic, but aiming to get yourself a measurement mic (umic-1 etc). Having that objective baseline is what you need to describe your system in your room and to see what (if anything) could do with changing. That'll be invaluable for integrating a sub too if you go down that route.
Measure before you change, and if it sounds good to you now then that's great

 

[SKE]

So i spent quite some time playing around with REW today. It took a little to get it to run and to get used to it. I did most experiments with my old desktop speakers first until I dared to move on to my actual stereo. While i could actually achieve some remarkable improvements with my (cheap creative labs) desktop system it was not so easy on my stereo. I'll provide a screenshot first:

https://i.ibb.co/PwkmSbC/Heco-eq.png
So we got:
orange - the system as is - measured at a single point only (to get an idea)
thick blue - an attempt to EQ the resonances. I could not achieve a really great improvement though

What I think I see: the frequency response is not all that bad. Especially from 600 Hz to 10 kHz. Base below 50 Hz is dropping rapidly and, also the highs drop unexpectedly quick above 10 kHz. Between 60 Hz and 500 Hz there are some significant resonances that I think arise due to modes in the room (?)

So its more or less what I heard: I need more low and more high end. Maybe the high end is partly a matter of my microphone though (I was using my NT1)

Do you guys have any suggestions how to proceed?

 

[ZolaIII]

@SKE play with room simulator in REW in order to see what you can do with placement to a degree what's acceptable and podible. Get a measurement microphone, preferably UMIK-1 (for REW cal compatibility and as SPL meter).

 

[dominikz]

So i spent quite some time playing around with REW today. It took a little to get it to run and to get used to it. I did most experiments with my old desktop speakers first until I dared to move on to my actual stereo. While i could actually achieve some remarkable improvements with my (cheap creative labs) desktop system it was not so easy on my stereo. I'll provide a screenshot first:

View attachment 348729
https://i.ibb.co/PwkmSbC/Heco-eq.png
So we got:
orange - the system as is - measured at a single point only (to get an idea)
thick blue - an attempt to EQ the resonances. I could not achieve a really great improvement though

What I think I see: the frequency response is not all that bad. Especially from 600 Hz to 10 kHz. Base below 50 Hz is dropping rapidly and, also the highs drop unexpectedly quick above 10 kHz. Between 60 Hz and 500 Hz there are some significant resonances that I think arise due to modes in the room (?)

So its more or less what I heard: I need more low and more high end. Maybe the high end is partly a matter of my microphone though (I was using my NT1)

Do you guys have any suggestions how to proceed?

Can you provide a bit more information on how you measured?
E.g. is this a sweep measurement at a single microphone position or MMM?
Did you use a microphone stand and made sure to be out of the way while measuring?
Did you play the sweep through L+R together or you measured L & R channels one by one?

The response after EQ seems overly corrected to me and I expect that wouldn't sound that good (probably too bright), but the response prior the correction looks a bit strange too so it'd be good to understand why.

 

[SKE]

Oh, sorry, I missed some details to add to the measurement provided above:
It shows a sweep at a single microphone position. I was way out of the way and the microphone had "free sight" to the loudspeaker. The particular speaker was the left one and I had to stop for that particular day so i could not try out everything.

Today I took another shot at the measurements. Moved the speakers (also their angles) around a little. And did lots of measurements. I do have some news:

- The roll off at the high frequencies was an error produced by my directonal microphone. During the first run I had that anti-dust-sack on my microphone and I didn't notice that I rotated it in its stand when swapping for a longer cable. That resulted in the membrane facing like 70 degrees away from the loudspeaker. Rotating the microphone towards the speaker fixed that problem
- I wanted to try the MMM dominikz proposed. However, it turned out that holding the microphone in my hand while measuring greatly influenced the region from 1-30 Hz (my tremor? ) effectively giving me a flat response from like 0-60 Hz which was too good to be true. So what I did was place the microphone on a stand, turn on the pink noise, average approx. 30 frames, move the mic to the next position in the vicinity and measured again. I took about 10 positions of both speakers and averaged the outcome of each speaker.

The result of the measurements are interesting. Below I show a series of positions for the left speaker (not smoothed)

Ok so it appears that my room does "help" quite some bit with the low frequencies. Also I am facing some annoying resonances, with the most pronounced sitting at approx 93 Hz. To validate the measurement I put on sine waves at different frequencies. What i got from that was:
- If i put on like 25 Hz i can clearly hear the sine wave. There is actually significant response there
- slowly increasing the frequency from 20 Hz to 60 Hz, actually even the up and downturn of the SPL is clearly hearable
- I did put the sine at 93.5 Hz to check what is going on there. It appears to be a really strong resonance there in the room. Its funny to experience it walking around in the room. There are vast regions where its barely hearable and regions where it is super loud. I suspect that this might be really hard to get rid of?

I did the same measurements for the other speaker and for both.

Also I tried to EQ for both sides and exemplarily I got this for the left one:

So apart from the resonances (?) I can attain a quite flat response from like 30 Hz to 16 kHz? It might to be taken with a grain of salt given that the microphone may not be suitable 100% for the job and given that I am not a professional with these measurements yet.

Actually EQing both sides individually does slightly improve the experience. Any Idead how to proceed? I think I will acquire that other mic soon.

 

[SKE]

Hi guys, sorry for taking so long now to get this "problem" solved. I got quite some things going on, but now I finally got around and bought an UMIK-1. So today I did some new measurements with it and... to be honest I do not quite know how to interpret them. I tried both sweep and MMM. The results were very similar for both methods, so for now i'll just share the sweep since it got a higher signal-level. The measurement below is for the left speaker. This time a see a really strong peak at about 60 Hz and i do get a very sharp dip in the signal at 120 Hz (it cannot be seen in the graph though since I applied 1/12 smoothing. It is definitely there, since I can hear a strong variation in volume level when I put the output to 120 Hz and move myself around.

I tried EQing (real quick) and ended up at this:

Now I feel like I don't understand anything it doesn't look all that bad. But where did that 60 Hz peak arise from nothing now? Why do i see (almost) zero at 120 Hz? Does my room need severe treatment maybe?