Best way to upgrade my 2nd hand Linn system

[DSJR]

LINN NINKA

Ivor Tiefenbrun, szef i właściciel Linna, to wizjoner albo szaleniec - w zależności od tego, jak krytycznie spojrzymy na jego pomysły. Ale ...

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JSmith

Oh My GAWD - were they really that bad? I can assure you that subjectively at least, passive Ninkas sounded like active Keildhs and went up from there...

 

[streamophile]

Oh My GAWD - were they really that bad? I can assure you that subjectively at least, passive Ninkas sounded like active Keildhs and went up from there...

I got kind of scared after that graph too... Probably will get rid of the system while there are buyers out there for it

Thanks for the deep dive into the Keilidhs & A1 btw! I know it was by far not a high-fidelity system, and it was not great on a lot of music, but sometimes it just sounded really good to my ears. That's probably more a statement about an unbalanced preference, and I'm ok with trying to go for a more accurate system moving forwards. I am just slightly concerned internally that I won't end up liking how a "correct" system sounds, but that's something I need to find out for myself, I guess.

All in all, I'm thinking of selling everything (except the CCA) and stating over. I honestly bought the Ninka's very, very cheap and probably will be able to sell the amp and the speakers and add to that to get to 1k€ which should be a good starting off point. Either DAC with balanced out into an active system like Genelec's or trying to get 2nd hand good passive speakers (quick & dirty list: Elac DBR62, LS50 Meta, Wharfedale Linton) and a basic amp that can drive any of these, for which I have no shortlist.

I can also think about the mic suggestion to do room correction, but I've also read that if the room has serious issues room correction will not be able to do much and the only solution is acoustic treatment.

 

[ZolaIII]

I got kind of scared after that graph too... Probably will get rid of the system while there are buyers out there for it

Thanks for the deep dive into the Keilidhs & A1 btw! I know it was by far not a high-fidelity system, and it was not great on a lot of music, but sometimes it just sounded really good to my ears. That's probably more a statement about an unbalanced preference, and I'm ok with trying to go for a more accurate system moving forwards. I am just slightly concerned internally that I won't end up liking how a "correct" system sounds, but that's something I need to find out for myself, I guess.

All in all, I'm thinking of selling everything (except the CCA) and stating over. I honestly bought the Ninka's very, very cheap and probably will be able to sell the amp and the speakers and add to that to get to 1k€ which should be a good starting off point. Either DAC with balanced out into an active system like Genelec's or trying to get 2nd hand good passive speakers (quick & dirty list: Elac DBR62, LS50 Meta, Wharfedale Linton) and a basic amp that can drive any of these, for which I have no shortlist.

I can also think about the mic suggestion to do room correction, but I've also read that if the room has serious issues room correction will not be able to do much and the only solution is acoustic treatment.

Start with microphone and DSP practice, for about 900 $/€ you can get a pair of deacent near field monitor's and a subwoofer (for example Kali LP 6 V2's + some sub you can find for the rest of money where you are). If you have half decent PC (desktop) it can serve as DSP with a relatively budget sound card as Creative AE-5 Plus (about 130$ you could try and second hand one's including less light effects no plus version, DAC is deacent and you do get 8 chenels 2 V unbalanced out but ADC is a bit sub pair). Other path would be something like MiniDSP Flex but that will cost you more (450~600 $\€ and more with Dirac licence).

 

[DSJR]

The Majik can make for a preamp, at least in the short term Remove the pre out-main in links and off you go RCA's I know, but in runs to a few metres each it shouldn't give issues.

 

[AnalogSteph]

RCA's I know, but in runs to a few metres each it shouldn't give issues.

When is this urban legend that ground loop issues have anything (much) to do with cable length ever going to die?

Plenty of people who tried to use studio monitors on their PC have figured this out the hard way over the years, yours truly being one of them. I have also used 10 m RCA cables with no issues.

Fortunately, making unbalanced outputs work decently enough is only a matter of having the right cables. I may be temped to use the headphone output in this case, which seems to have 6 dB of gain and a <8 ohms of output impedance, so impedance balance would be good even when just splitting cold / shield with no resistors. (Application note Amplifier signal wiring.pdf)

(It doesn't help you if you get a ground loop on the input side then, of course, e.g. with the PC as source. In that case you want to be using RaneNote 110 #17 instead.)

 

[Mart68]

Oh My GAWD - were they really that bad? I can assure you that subjectively at least, passive Ninkas sounded like active Keildhs and went up from there...

At least they were better than the Kans.

I have no idea why anyone ever bought Linn or Naim speakers. Good salesmen perhaps?

 

[DSJR]

When is this urban legend that ground loop issues have anything (much) to do with cable length ever going to die?

Little to do with ground loops with RCA's at each end, but do remember that a lot of older domestic gear wasn't really designed for remote power amps. The Majik used as hf in an 'aktiv' system would arguably have had a 1m set of RCA cables and be stood on top of the (Linn) power amp chosen.

We're so much better served these days with properly designed gear.

P.S. I used a 10m RCA cables (cheap, from 'Bandridge' thirty years ago) from video machine to the preamp with no hum issues

 

[streamophile]

@BDWoody, @Loathecliff, @ZolaIII, @LTig, @maty, @DSJR, @JSmith - Despite what I said initially, I bought a Umik-1 mic and started measuring... and the results don't look so good.

It shows what I have been feeling about the system: the bass is boomy, the highs can be overpowering and the mids sound muffled. This image is the 1/6 smoothing of the average of 3 measurement at the listening position (with a shower running in the background), so it's not perfect. However, it's much much more better for diagnosing than what I had before, which was essentially just my ears. I also have the speakers parallel to the side walls (that would be equivalent to a 30º toe out, approximately). How can I learn how to improve my measurements? Any other data that you'd like to see? I've also attached the spectrogram as I read that can be relevant to see room-speaker interaction. It clearly highlights my problems with bass in the 70 - 120Hz region.

I have been doing much reading since my first post and decided to start from scratch (see my post about this here). I have been to a couple of stored to try out active speakers and I was really impressed by the Genelec lineup. The 8030/G3 impressed my particularly. The 8040 proved to be too big for my wife's taste so I found a second hand pair of white 8030Cs in my area for 600€ and jumped at the occasion. They're arriving early this week! So looking forward to hearing them in my room. I have a Focusrite Saphire 6 audio interface from my home studio days and I just got a pair of inexpensive TLS to XLR cables, so I will be running the Genelec 8030C this way for the time being.

As I mentioned in my other post here, I though about starting with a budget solution with just a balanced DAC (like the Topping E50, this way I get to keep the TLS to XLR cables) to connect my Chromecast Audio and TV digitally to. Then, by using placement and the DSP switches on the back of the 8030C, I will try to get a good setup with less problems that I enjoy. From there, I'll see how I like the system and can look into trading the DAC for a miniDSP Flex balanced or even get a subwoofer, or both.

Just wanted to write up about my journey with audio this month, it's been quite a learning experience and I thank you all.

 

[ZolaIII]

@streamophile well it's good you botht the microphone, now you see what's going on. It's not horrible bass peak is probably the room mode. Now play with speaker placement as much as you can until you fix that hole in mids and try to improve highs. Rest can be PEQ-ed (pretty much). When you get placement as good as you can do the single PEQ of room mode and tame down highs with self filter and you are 90% there.

 

[BDWoody]

I found a second hand pair of white 8030Cs in my area for 600€ and jumped at the occasion. They're arriving early this week! So looking forward to hearing them in my room.

That's pretty exciting!

Nice work with getting a mic, and starting to run some measurements. Let us know what you think of the Genelecs.

 

[Willem]

Chromecast is good to stream, but not as a DAC so you don't want to use the minijack-to-RC

This is actually not true. The analogue output is good enough for better than CD Red Book standard - see e.g. Archimago's measurements. All youihave to keep in mind is the confusing so-caleld high dynamic range setting which has nothing to do with dynamic range but with output level. The HDR setting is the traditional 2 Volt, whereas the non HDR is rather less (I think something like 1.2 Volt). So use the HDR setting if your amplifier's analogue input can handle this, if not, use the lower level output.
As for the amplifier, I think it is quite seriously underpowered. Consider replacing it with a 2x100 watt Yamaha AS701/801 or a 2x125 watt Sonos AMP if you don't really use legacy sources.
Speakers of that age have been overtaken by modern designs, and are often long in the tooth. Cheap modern ones are the Wharfedale Diamonds, and more ambitious ones are the Elac DBR62
Edit: I missed your recent posts. It looks as if you are on your way to a really good outcome.

 

[LTig]

Despite what I said initially, I bought a Umik-1 mic and started measuring... and the results don't look so good.

View attachment 324001

I'm sure the horrible peak at 90 Hz is a room mode. Try other position or use EQ to bring it down.

[..] I have been doing much reading since my first post and decided to start from scratch (see my post about this here). I have been to a couple of stored to try out active speakers and I was really impressed by the Genelec lineup. The 8030/G3 impressed my particularly. The 8040 proved to be too big for my wife's taste so I found a second hand pair of white 8030Cs in my area for 600€ and jumped at the occasion. They're arriving early this week!

The 8030s should not have the loss around 900 Hz, but if you place them where your current speakers are the peak at 90 Hz won't disappear. So don't be too disappointed about boomy bass - this is not the speakers problem.

 

[5-pot-fan]

I was in your earlier position a few months ago, and kit-wise I still am. Linn Katan speakers, Linn Av5125 with active crossovers, Linn Kairn pre-amp, but fed from digital files through an Rpi4 running MoodeAudio to a DAC.
Not a great sound in a small room despite attempts to improve things through speaker positioning and trying different listening positions.
Two weeks ago I began playing with Camilla DSP (now built in with Moode) and REW (room equalisation software),and the results have been very worthwhile to my ears, and no great drain on my wallet.
If you did not already have new speakers on the way I would say try this approach first, but you may find it worthwhile anyway to deal with room nodes etc.
Whatever the outcome I hope you enjoy the music!

 

[streamophile]

I was in your earlier position a few months ago, and kit-wise I still am. Linn Katan speakers, Linn Av5125 with active crossovers, Linn Kairn pre-amp, but fed from digital files through an Rpi4 running MoodeAudio to a DAC.
Not a great sound in a small room despite attempts to improve things through speaker positioning and trying different listening positions.
Two weeks ago I began playing with Camilla DSP (now built in with Moode) and REW (room equalisation software),and the results have been very worthwhile to my ears, and no great drain on my wallet.
If you did not already have new speakers on the way I would say try this approach first, but you may find it worthwhile anyway to deal with room nodes etc.
Whatever the outcome I hope you enjoy the music!

To be honest, I was getting constant complains from my wife about the size of the speakers, so downsizing was inevitable.

Nevertheless, quite interesting to hear and I am indeed in that room eq journey too. My main issue at the moment is how to implement "in-hardware" DSP. You mentioned the Pi streamer, but I already have a CCA. Also I'm not very fond of pi-based streamers as I tried in the past and it jus did not work for me.

Others have recommended the minidsp flex balanced (for the 8030s balanced inputs). It is a great solution but with scarce second hand availability, it's price new is higher than what I've spent in the speakers! So I'm wondering at the moment what would be a cost effective way to introduce DSP. @staticV3 recommended the WiiM Pro Plus as it has PEQ capabilities and I can get the filters for the low end from REW. However, as it only has RCA out I cannot hook it to the balanced outs of the Genelec speakers. Also, as I will eventually include a sub, adding it to the WiiM Pro Plus does not seem easy as it has no sub out.

 

[staticV3]

@staticV3 recommended the WiiM Pro Plus as it has PEQ capabilities and I can get the filters for the low end from REW. However, as it only has RCA out I cannot hook it to the balanced outs of the Genelec speakers.

You can totally plug the WiiM into a pair of 8030Cs using cables like this: https://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-XLR-Male-RCA-Cable/dp/B001UJCS82

However, a single-ended RCA output means that you may encounter ground loop induced common-mode noise coming out of the speakers.

 

[streamophile]

You can totally plug the WiiM into a pair of 8030Cs using cables like this: https://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-XLR-Male-RCA-Cable/dp/B001UJCS82

However, a single-ended RCA output means that you may encounter ground loop induced common-mode noise coming out of the speakers.

Right! Maybe "cannot" is not quite correct and I should have said "probably should not"?

 

[staticV3]

Right! Maybe "cannot" is not quite correct and I should have said "probably should not"?

You can't break anything by trying it, so if you already have an RCA source that you'd like to use, then I'd say it's worth trying the cables.
Worst case, you get ground loop noise and return the cables.

However, if you're building your system from scratch then it may be worth dismissing all single-ended solutions outright, as it may save you the time and effort of troubleshooting a poor signal.

 

[streamophile]

You can't break anything by trying it, so if you already have an RCA source that you'd like to use, then I'd say it's worth trying the cables.
Worst case, you get ground loop noise and return the cables.

However, if you're building your system from scratch then it may be worth dismissing all single-ended solutions outright, as it may save you the time and effort of troubleshooting a poor signal.

That's a better put argument! I agree on principle that I'd prefer a "cleaner" solution that solves problems instead of potentially creating them and is correct/optimum.

Maybe WiiM will make a streamer/DAC with balanced outs? Or some good alternative will come along (or already exists but I don't know about it)?

 

[triptic]

Hello ASR,

First-time posting here, I hope you're all doing great.

I'm quite new to the audio world and a couple of years ago I bough a second hand Linn system on the cheap. Linn was the only brand I knew, had heard equipment from and so had some experience with. My father had a full Linn system, so I just followed his steps. That being said, after some reading, I believe I could do better. Therefore, I'm now on a quest to level up my audio setup, and I could really use your thoughts and suggestions to find the best bang-for-my-buck way to do so.

Current Setup:

• Speakers: Linn Ninka
• Amp: Linn Majik (old-school first-gen)
• Source: Chromecast Audio (plugged in via RCA straight into the Majik amp) playing local audio files and Sportify.

What's Bugging Me:

• Room reality check: My Linn Ninka speakers are probably too big for my room (20 m2), and I could use something less weighty and space-hogging.
• Amp's age: The Linn Majik amp is showing its age, being a first-generation model and all. Probably it is also close to being underpowered to drive the Ninkas.
• DAC issues: Chromecast Audio's built-in DAC is passable but I think I could do better. I also use the system to watch TV and a separate DAC could allow me to connect the TV digitally rather than through the current RCA connection that is using the TVs probably very poor DAC
• Sound quirks: Sometimes high-pitched frequencies get a bit fatiguing, making me hit the volume down button. Also, I'm missing some bass oomph for my taste, although this mostly happens with not-so-great quality Spotify streaming, which may well be the culprit

Upgrade Ideas

• Speaker Swap: Downsizing to sleeker, more modern speakers might help with the room issue. However, I think my Linn Ninkas are the best part of the system (might be wrong).
• Amp Upgrade: I'm also thinking of leveling up the amp which could help balance out those trebles.
• External DAC: Adding an external DAC to my Chromecast Audio, or maybe swapping it out for a different streamer, could be a good improvement. Also, it could be the most wallet-friendly fix if the Chromecast Audio is the culprit.
• Lossless Music Source: Jumping onto Tidal or Qobuz might make a big difference, audio-wise. But it does come with a monthly tab, which I am not very fond off as I do not feel I get my monthly money's worth.

Budget: I've got around 1000€ to play with, plus any extra cash that can make from selling part of the system. I'm rocking out in Scandinavia.

I'm open to any recommendations or advice you've got as I mainly need help with diagnosing where the main problem is. Feel free to also recommend specific components.

Thanks for your help!

Agree with you that the Ninkas are (by far) the strongest part of your set up. They work even better when Aktiv. Ideally something like a Majik 6100 amp with Ninka aktiv cards fitted would really improve things because you can run the Ninka's tri-active. Replacing the front end with say a used Majik DS with a digital volume control (and hence no need for a separate pre-amp) would complete the picture for me. Heavily budget dependent of course but there are lots of good 2nd hand bargains to be had. I have a second system identical to this aside from having an Akurate DS as source. Btw, try to source the upgrade polymer stands for the Ninkas - they help a lot to particularly with the bass. Ninka's are capable of producing a lot of decent bass.