Lack of 2.1 support is grinding my gears

[Yorkshire Mouth]

I might have this wrong, but I suspect most of us, or at least a significant minority have (or aspire to):

- A great DAC (they’re so cheap!)
- A great amp (these new desktop ones like the Toppings and Fosi Audios are superb…and so cheap!)
- A good pair of speakers, more often than not bookshelf/stand mount or floor standers which aren’t full range (okay, not so cheap, but getting cheaper)
- A sub (or it’s at least on the shopping list)

What’s missing? Well, to drive a system like that to its best, you really need bass management. Diverting the lowest frequencies from the speakers help them not to distort as easily, and takes strain off the amp, too.

Where would this crossover need to be? I’m guessing, either:

- In the DAC
- In the amp
- In a little digital crossover box between other components

The new WiiM streamer/DAC/amp has this exactly, but it’s yet to be measured as being as good as the other components were used to.

AV receivers - but you’re spending 4 figures for something where you don’t use most of the functionality, and where the amp and DAC aren’t as good as far cheaper options.

Fosi have said they’re bringing out an amp with a sub out and high pass filter, which they claim won’t affect quality. I wait with eager anticipation.

But it’s driving me nuts. Look at the cheap Topping DACs which are transparent to the source, and cost very (very, very) low three figures. Add 50% to that price, and surely they’d sell like hot cakes.

What in the name of Kylie’s gold hot pants is going on!

Am I alone in thinking the above?

Sorry, rant over, as you were.

 

[anotherhobby]

I use the MiniDSP Flex (with Dirac). It solves the problem perfectly.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

I use the MiniDSP Flex (with Dirac). It solves the problem perfectly.

I’m not sure it does. First, my understanding is that it’s digital to analogue - do I have that right?

Secondly, your looking at £400+.

I’m sorry, but even with my limited knowledge of the technology that’s hugely overpriced for the purpose I’m discussing.

Amir reviewed the WiiM Pro Plus (costs around £200/$200). It has 4 band PEQ which he measured as silent. A high pass and low pass digital filter is really only high/low shelf filter which removes all the signal rather than just a few db.

Given that the Pro Plus is primarily a fantastic streamer with a great DAC, with PEQ being an add-on, I simply don’t believe this functionality couldn’t be added to a DAC for £50, probably less.

By the way, that raises one other possibility. If you add a sub out and bass management to the WiiM Pro Plus, just in the same was it’s on the amp, what not to like? The one issue - you’d have to control the volume from the WiiM.

How about Topping DAC/Amp, like the WiiM Amp without the streamer?

 

[anotherhobby]

I’m not sure it does. First, my understanding is that it’s digital to analogue - do I have that right?

Yes, and the digital domain is superior for handling crossovers for sub integration. I wouldn't even consider an all analog solution.

 

[anotherhobby]

I’m not sure it does. First, my understanding is that it’s digital to analogue - do I have that right?

Secondly, your looking at £400+.

I’m sorry, but even with my limited knowledge of the technology that’s hugely overpriced for the purpose I’m discussing.

Amir reviewed the WiiM Pro Plus (costs around £200/$200). It has 4 band PEQ which he measured as silent. A high pass and low pass digital filter is really only high/low shelf filter which removes all the signal rather than just a few db.

Given that the Pro Plus is primarily a fantastic streamer with a great DAC, with PEQ being an add-on, I simply don’t believe this functionality couldn’t be added to a DAC for £50, probably less.

By the way, that raises one other possibility. If you add a sub out and bass management to the WiiM Pro Plus, just in the same was it’s on the amp, what not to like? The one issue - you’d have to control the volume from the WiiM.

How about Topping DAC/Amp, like the WiiM Amp without the streamer?

I went thru the same hand wringing you did. I thought it was a simple problem that should be solved cheaply. The truth is that it is not. I bought a Rolls crossover and sent it to Amir to see how it would do, and I sent that back after seeing the numbers. I thought about a used AVR, but did not have the space for one in my office. After all of monkeying around I finally caved in, forked over the cash, and got the Flex. After getting it, I was so glad I didn't settle for something else. It really is worth the price. The software is excellent, and you get FAR more than a simple crossover. I think the Flex solves the problem so well, that the $/£100-200 saved on monkeying around with other crap isn't worth the trouble. Hardware, software, and support are all excellent.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

I went thru the same hand wringing you did. I thought it was a simple problem that should be solved cheaply. The truth is that it is not. I bought a Rolls crossover and sent it to Amir to see how it would do, and I sent that back after seeing the numbers. I thought about a used AVR, but did not have the space for one in my office. After all of monkeying around I finally caved in, forked over the cash, and got the Flex. After getting it, I was so glad I didn't settle for something else. It really is worth the price. The software is excellent, and you get FAR more than a simple crossover. I think the Flex solves the problem so well, that the $/£100-200 saved on monkeying around with other crap isn't worth the trouble. Hardware, software, and support are all excellent.

Many thanks, your input is appreciated.

I totally get your point, and it’s certainly an option I’ve considered. I just get the feeling, with the WiiM Amp, and Fosi Audio’s comments, that this is an idea who’s time has (almost) come.

 

[Doctors11]

Yes it's large...yes it's a bit pricy...but wouldn't this give you everything you need?

RR2160MkII Stereo Receiver

Outlaws all over America praised our RR2160. The smooth playback and the art-deco design resonated with those of us still spinning singles, EPs, and LPs. A superb phono pre-amp, four pure analog audio, line level inputs, a Burr Brown DAC, and updated Internet Radio with built in WiFi...it may...

outlawaudio.com

 

[DVDdoug]

For whatever reason, 2.1 just isn't "standard" in stereo/hi-fi systems. A separate subwoofer is required with surround sound, or you lose the LFE.

you really need bass management. Diverting the lowest frequencies from the speakers help them not to distort as easily, and takes strain off the amp, too.

You can get a "pro" active crossover for around $100 USD. The miniDSP is also popular among "audiophiles".

"Bass management" is a bit more involved. An AVR (or audio video processor) routes the "point one" LFE channel to the subwoofer, and the bass management optionally works as a crossover (in case you have a "small" speakers that can't reproduce the bass from the other channels). The LFE is not included the downmix so a crossover is not enough for movies (or anything else with an LFE channel). If you're not using your system for movies you don't need bass management, just a crossover.

AV receivers - but you’re spending 4 figures for something where you don’t use most of the functionality

My AVR was closer to $300 USD.

and where the amp and DAC aren’t as good as far cheaper options.

There's nothing wrong with the amp in my AVR (80W x 5 channels). 80W is plenty for my huge speakers in my average-size living room, and the subs are separately powered. (I could annoy my nearby neighbors but I try to be respectful.)

I've NEVER heard a defect from ANY DAC, except once I had a soundcard that that had noise when the hard-drive was accessed. But that was electrical "computer nose" getting into the analog side and not the fault of the "DAC".

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Yes it's large...yes it's a bit pricy...but wouldn't this give you everything you need?

RR2160MkII Stereo Receiver

Outlaws all over America praised our RR2160. The smooth playback and the art-deco design resonated with those of us still spinning singles, EPs, and LPs. A superb phono pre-amp, four pure analog audio, line level inputs, a Burr Brown DAC, and updated Internet Radio with built in WiFi...it may...

outlawaudio.com

Has it been measured? I mean that’s my first thought, obviously.

Then my second is that it’s a lot of money! Especially compared with what I think one of those would cost if built by Fosi or Topping.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

For whatever reason, 2.1 just isn't "standard" in stereo/hi-fi systems. A separate subwoofer is required with surround sound, or you lose the LFE.


You can get a "pro" active crossover for around $100 USD. The miniDSP is also popular among "audiophiles".

"Bass management" is a bit more involved. An AVR (or audio video processor) routes the "point one" LFE channel to the subwoofer, and the bass management optionally works as a crossover (in case you have a "small" speakers that can't reproduce the bass from the other channels). The LFE is not included the downmix so a crossover is not enough for movies (or anything else with an LFE channel). If you're not using your system for movies you don't need bass management, just a crossover.



My AVR was closer to $300 USD.


There's nothing wrong with the amp in my AVR (80W x 5 channels). 80W is plenty for my huge speakers in my average-size living room, and the subs are separately powered. (I could annoy my nearby neighbors but I try to be respectful.)

I've NEVER heard a defect from ANY DAC, except once I had a soundcard that that had noise when the hard-drive was accessed. But that was electrical "computer nose" getting into the analog side and not the fault of the "DAC".

I actually have a Marantz NR1506. But Amir has measured that one (or similar) and it came out poorly.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

BTW, Fosi’s comments here in Post 9:

Fosi Audio's First Dual-Mode Balanced Amplifier ZA3

Greetings! We're happy to share with ASR members that our first dual-mode balanced amplifier ZA3 is about to be released! Here are some details about this amp. •Mode: Stereo, Mono •Input: RCA, XLR •Output: Speaker Out, Sub Out •Amp Chip: Texas Instrument TPA3255 •SINAD: 88dB •SNR: ≥106dB...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[tmtomh]

Not sure if this is of any use, but the MiniDSP Flex comes in a version with digital outputs instead of analogue outputs, so everything stays in the digital domain. Still $495 of course - and I agree its subwoofer-management functionality could be integrated into existing stereo DAC designs for a lot less than that. But at any rate, it would provide an all-digital 2.1 management solution and has some wireless/streaming capability.

I'm personally not a MiniDSP fan, but lots of folks use their products and like them.

 

[Hjbct]

Is using two inexpensive DACs like Topping E30, or E50 and using software crossover like Roon offers an option?

I'd like to do something similar but keep the crossover in software.

 

[Chrispy]

I actually have a Marantz NR1506. But Amir has measured that one (or similar) and it came out poorly.

But is it an audible problem?

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

But is it an audible problem?

My understanding, looking at the review, is that some of the deficiencies are within human audibility.

But I’m happy to be corrected.

 

[anotherhobby]

Is using two inexpensive DACs like Topping E30, or E50 and using software crossover like Roon offers an option?

I'd like to do something similar but keep the crossover in software.

Yes, it looks like it. Roon crossover thread.
There are also desktop software solutions like Audio Hijack.

 

[Chrispy]

My understanding, looking at the review, is that some of the deficiencies are within human audibility.

But I’m happy to be corrected.

Sure, theoretically....but is it a problem to your ears? Personally I find avrs much more useful than limited 2ch gear, but I like multich and 2ch music and subs and video as well....my one 2ch rig is my least used (and am using a very good measuring external dac with my old 2ch analog gear, and it works as well as the dacs in my avrs, at least for 2ch.

 

[Puddingbuks]

I had a similar setup and the addition of a Lyngdorf TDAI 2170 was perfect. The roomperfect system is easy to use for subwoofer integration and the result was great, no more boomy unclear bass, mids opened up. Love it.

The newer TDAI 1120 is even better, although with less power, it can also stream.

 

[levimax]

Is using two inexpensive DACs like Topping E30, or E50 and using software crossover like Roon offers an option?

I'd like to do something similar but keep the crossover in software.

I recently bought DIRAC DLBC for PC for use for my 2.2 system. I replaced an analog active crossover with the DIRAC DLBC and am happy with the results, it is better measured and subjectively and I had spent a lot of time setting up and fine tuning the analog crossovers. AI EQ is now smarter than I am apparently.

One disappointing and expensive issue is that while it is "Possible" to use multiple DAC with "Voicemeeter" software and DIRAC the results are not great due to "clock drift" issues. I didn't try it and instead bought a MOTU Ultralite Mk5.

 

[LouB]

New to "bass management" and would like to try a sub with my 2 channel amp but the amp a Marantz model 40n has a sub output but no low pass filter for the mains which (if I'm correct) means the mains will get all low freq. along with sub so if I'm not happy with main speakers bass I'll still get it & just get more of it with a sub which has me thinking it will just a mess. In reading post I realized I havent thought of some type of added cross over for the mains. Is there something simple that would work for my situation ?
Thanks