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Listen and choose the 8th generation digital copy.

Blumlein 88

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#1
Each of these zip files will open into three wav files. One is labeled Reference, one is A and one is B. These are 30 second snippets of full songs. The originals were from CD so all 44.1 khz and 16 bit.

Either A or B has been thru 8 generations of DA to AD copying. The other is identical to the Reference file. So the 8th generation copy should be the odd one out in terms of sound quality. I decided not to make it a poll. So just put your replies to any you listen to in this thread. I'll reveal which is which in time.

Thought it a good chance to let people hear what 8 rounds of copying sounds like. If you don't hear a difference post that too.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/q8dhhxkjsbaho4w/Ry Cooder and VM Bhatt.zip?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b899j2ljmonlxaf/Phil%20Woods%20repost.zip?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v60bqlqdfbcktf4/Jennifer Warnes.zip?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xc3g1h887vot4hn/Cowboy Junkies.zip?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1vnoquxjisu70zd/Bob Marley.zip?dl=0


Only look at the spoiler after you've auditioned the files. The answers are in the spoiler for each file.
Since the poll is closed here are the answers for each file.



1 is Ry Cooder and V.M. Bhatt B is the copy.

2 is Phil Woods A is the copy

3 is Cowboy Junkies B is the copy

4 is Jennifer Warnes B is the copy

5 is Bob Marley A is the copy.



1 B is the Copy

2 A is the Copy

3 B is the Copy

4 B is the copy

5 A is the copy





So 50:50 split on the first two and 2, 4 split on the third.



I can ABX them all. It isn't easy, but it is doable. I can't do the 4th gen files or even the 6th gen files. I can the 8th gen files.
 
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solderdude

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#2
What DAC - ADC was used ?
 

restorer-john

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#6
Jennifer Warnes A= Reference (confidence level about 9/10)
Bob Marley A= Reference (confidence level about 6/10)
Ry Cooder - Can't hear a difference between any three
Phil Woods B= Reference (confidence level about 7/10)
Cowboy Junkies - can't hear a difference between any three

Disclaimer: PC headphone jack and pair of 1982 Sony MDR-70 walkman headphones. That's my excuse. :)
 

Blumlein 88

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#7
People always make excuses for their gear. I don't think I've ever heard someone make choices on my posted file listening tests with:

I'm confident of my choices as I used my Wilson Grand Slam speakers driven by Mark Levinson 523 amps and my dcs stack as my MSB stack is back getting an upgrade.

:):):)
 
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#8
Bob Marley A
Ry Cooder A
Cowboy Junkies B
Phil Woods B
Jennifer Warnes can tell

Confidence in Bob Marley moderate others low.... this is too hard and too much work :)
 

restorer-john

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#9
People always make excuses for their gear.
I plugged my AKG-702s into the PC, but there wasn't enough volume from the soundcard, so I picked some really old and efficient 'phones to see what grunge I could hear below the music. Trouble was, there was only the noise from the recording compander used in a few of those recordings in the studio.

I remember doing the same thing a while back cascading 3 DAT recorders together in A/D-D/A mode twice- couldn't hear the difference then, and that was many years ago when my ears were better.
 

Blumlein 88

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#10
I plugged my AKG-702s into the PC, but there wasn't enough volume from the soundcard, so I picked some really old and efficient 'phones to see what grunge I could hear below the music. Trouble was, there was only the noise from the recording compander used in a few of those recordings in the studio.

I remember doing the same thing a while back cascading 3 DAT recorders together in A/D-D/A mode twice- couldn't hear the difference then, and that was many years ago when my ears were better.
It is all good. Just a little ribbing.
 

Krunok

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#11
I tried only Ry Cooder to see what's the idea and to me it seems that B has passed through conversions while A is equal to Reference.

P.S. I listened via my speakers on the moderate volume, the same way I usually listen to my music. If I missed that means I'm half deaf, I'm sure there's nothing wrong with my speakers. :D
 
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gvl

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#12
I can't make any picks with a comfortable degree of confidence, which probably means I should stop wasting my time on audio forums. If anything Jennifer Warnes B is the 8th generation, others I won't even try. This was through the Khadas TB + JDS Atom + HD6XX, this forum told us it doesn't get much better than this.
 
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Krunok

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#13
I can't make any picks with a comfortable degree of confidence, which probably means I should stop wasting my time on audio forums.
Frankly, I'm affraid this forum would be reduced to a handful of people if the only ones that remain would be the ones that can confidently tell the difference between these samples. :D
 

Blumlein 88

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#15
If we assume that both devices have SINAD of 110dB is it possible to calculate/estimate SINAD of this processing chain?
I've done some measures of such previously and included a couple tones and such this time too.

Theoretically you'd have 9 db more noise. I did have to make a gain change after the 6th generation. In the end it was about 8.4 db noise floor increase. More troublesome with SINAD is the 3rd harmonic distortion. Mostly due to the ADC it was -85 db at full level for this. All other harmonics are below -100 db. I don't think any of the files exceeded -1 db and harmonic distortion has dropped four or five db by that level. So let us say it probably effectively has a SINAD of 90 db and you'll not be far off. Okay I just went and measured it best I can and it looks like SINAD is 86.4 db for the 8th generation. A loss of about 24 db vs listening to the March DAC itself with original files. Makes me feel better about my AV preamp which has SINAD of 95 or 96 db.
 

restorer-john

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#16
Normally, there are cues which us audiophiles can use to appear 'golden eared'.

Residual noise, noise floor modulation, low level THD, cymbal distortion and/or high frequency 'splash', level changes etc. Sadly there are none in these samples that I can use/hear.
 

restorer-john

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#17
A loss of about 24 db vs listening to the March DAC itself with original files. Makes me feel better about my AV preamp which has SINAD of 95 or 96 db.
Another reason I thank Heitaro Nakajima (RIP) and his team for steadfastly holding out for 16/44- it has served us well.
 

Blumlein 88

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#18
Another reason I thank Heitaro Nakajima (RIP) and his team for steadfastly holding out for 16/44- it has served us well.
I do wish it had been 16/48. That way fewer sample rates. Oh well this current March DAC does 768 khz and I think DSD 256. How wonderful it can be in the imagination.
 

Krunok

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#19
I've done some measures of such previously and included a couple tones and such this time too.

Theoretically you'd have 9 db more noise. I did have to make a gain change after the 6th generation. In the end it was about 8.4 db noise floor increase. More troublesome with SINAD is the 3rd harmonic distortion. Mostly due to the ADC it was -85 db at full level for this. All other harmonics are below -100 db. I don't think any of the files exceeded -1 db and harmonic distortion has dropped four or five db by that level. So let us say it probably effectively has a SINAD of 90 db and you'll not be far off. Okay I just went and measured it best I can and it looks like SINAD is 86.4 db for the 8th generation. A loss of about 24 db vs listening to the March DAC itself with original files. Makes me feel better about my AV preamp which has SINAD of 95 or 96 db.
My Rotel amp has SINAD of app 86dB in the power range of 1-20W at which I usually listen music. If I recognised correctly Ry Cooder sample which has been converted 8x, and I'm pretty sure I can hear the difference, that would mean that speakers did a hell of a job to show such small difference.

In case I didn't recognised correctly it would also mean that all this hair splitting DAC measurements are pretty much "l'art pour l'art" stuff, at least for my level of hearing.
 
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Soniclife

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#20
With very low confidence I say.
Jennifer Warnes, B is different.
Bob Marley, A is different.
The others I wasn't even close to convincing myself I could tell them apart.

Done with tiny active Eve audio monitors on my desk.

None of the music choices were what I consider the best for this sort of test, I would have preferred something that was a big complicated mess, from people who have spent too long in a studio multi tracking everything.
 
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