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KEF R11 vs. Q900 Blind test can’t tell difference! HELP

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seanhyatt

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I just posted another thread on a related major quality control issue with the R11 I received. I did not want to bring it up here because this is about the sound quality.

 

bodhi

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I will try them in mono as the next step and possibly final step.

Last night I did move the speakers around a bit and felt subjectively I got much more clarity out of the R11. Also did an Audyssey calibration (for convenience) and my conclusion was the R11 sounds terrible with Audyssey. The highs even when rolled off were screeching. The Q900 does ok with Audyssey. Audyssey has a problem with the higher bands and the R11 demonstrates that. Switched to pure direct.

I don't know if I can get my wife to administer another blind test. She is psychologist and one thing she does not like doing is testing!
Umm... Yeah full range audyssey sounds kind of bad, and it should. The speakers are just fine, you don't need to correct them. Limit the correction to 500Hz max. Play with toe in to fine tune treble.
 

BrokenEnglishGuy

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uh another thing
as far as I know, if you do some '' toe in '' with the speakers like you, the soundstage will narrow
It's better to put these in straight line, you have the space :D
Try these 2 things:
The position like this and without the acoustics panels
kef1-jpg.44629

vs
index.php
 

BrokenEnglishGuy

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Umm... Yeah full range audyssey sounds kind of bad, and it should. The speakers are just fine, you don't need to correct them. Limit the correction to 500Hz max. Play with toe in to fine tune treble.
yes, these auto correction things should never pass nearly 500hz~
 

Triliza

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The problem was I didn't like my speaker more or less...the problem was I couldn't hear any noticable difference .

Which is good, because it saved me money. But also bad, because I really want new speakers :)

That lead me to suspicion that maybe speakers, just like DACs/amps, are "solved equation" if not forced into distortion...at least for average joes like me.
This doesn't prove anything and should be taken lightly, but there were a couple of threads with binaural recordings of different speakers a while back. Differences can be clearly heard between some speakers:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...lind-comparison-test-of-4-loudspeakers.26785/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d-comparison-test-of-4-loudspeakers-ii.27335/
 
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seanhyatt

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uh another thing
as far as I know, if you do some '' toe in '' with the speakers like you, the soundstage will narrow
It's better to put these in straight line, you have the space :D
Try these 2 things:
The position like this and without the acoustics panels
kef1-jpg.44629

vs
index.php

I have tried them straight but I find the center imaging suffers. I am happy with both the Q900 and R11 soundstage width.
 

fpitas

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I think that anywhere around the critical midrange - where our ears are most sensitive - crossovers can be problematic.... often the best sounding speakers therefore avoid crossovers.... a well designed 2 way can go down to around 60Hz (or lower) with nothing more than a capacitor for the tweeter, or the use of a piezo tweeter - I started noticing those designs years ago, after investigating several speakers I particularly liked the sound of, and finding out that they all had this feature in common.... even though the Richters (traditional 2 way bookshelves) and the Gallo Strada's - a scifi / lifestyle looking thing were very very different in appearance, some aspects of their sound were very much alike...
I'll point out that Salon2s cross at 575Hz. Smack dab in the middle of midrange. Knowing how to design a good crossover is essential, and probably why amateurs often botch it.
 

BrokenEnglishGuy

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I have tried them straight but I find the center imaging suffers. I am happy with both the Q900 and R11 soundstage width.
but what you wanted with the r11? what do you expected?
I mean, it sounds loud and clear, better in dance music with bass... you are happy with the soundstage width?... what else?
 

Travis

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I really appreciate the fact that despite how difficult it is to do a blind speaker test you gave it a shot and reported your findings. The more members that do this, the more will see the “science” is real.

Now you have a rig to test a kinds of speakers, even those that people leave on the curb to throw away, or even goodwill $25 speakers.

One suggestion, if you can, is repeat the test but with model A on the opposite side you originally had it, and B to the other side. I realize it’s more difficult to do blind, but even in well designed listening rooms/environments, most people have a preferred side/corner and the only way you can control for that is swap from left to right.

It also appears that your listening tests were single blind and didn’t appear to influence what you heard. You could recruit another family member to conduct test so it would be double blind and I’m pretty sure you will find that it makes no difference in what you are trying to determine. In addition, the size of your cohort is perfect, despite what anyone may tell you. It has you, trying to see if it sounds better in your room, to your ears, with your music, to make a decision on a buy/no-buy decision, plus your better half (happy wife . . .). That’s all you need. How the higher range sound in other rooms to other people, or a showroom, or at a lab on a turntable are of no consequence to what your test is for.

Bravo for stepping into the abyss. Just think, 20 years ago we would have all (if we are being honest and not in the audio biz) been saying that there was no way the higher range speaker didn’t sound better, that it was clearly your deficient hearing or other subjective failing. There should be a section on the Forum with links to posts like this where people have gone the extra mile to put theory into practice.
 

bodhi

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Bravo for stepping into the abyss. Just think, 20 years ago we would have all (if we are being honest and not in the audio biz) been saying that there was no way the higher range speaker didn’t sound better, that it was clearly your deficient hearing or other subjective failing. There should be a section on the Forum with links to posts like this where people have gone the extra mile to put theory into practice.
It's not that different now. If you just casually read threads here you might get the feeling that something like Genelec 8351, F208, KEF Ref1 or one of these "just south of stupidly expensive" speakers are totally worth it if you like good sound and bring pleasure that no humble value speakers can touch. Of course if you know to ask then people might explain how things are and that is why this forum is special IMO.

More difficult is to explain why, knowing diminishing returns, one still spends thousands more than "needed". I've done that and I cannot put it into words really, maybe something like wanting to get rid the upgrade itch (doesn't work that well btw).
 

krabapple

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KEF R11 are on closeout so I decided to pickup a pair to replace my Q900. After days of listening the R11 seemed to sound similar to the Q900. I was expecting a bigger difference moving up a series.

I had thought about returning the R11 and wanted to compare them next to each. I setup an a/b speaker switcher. First I had my wife listening to 10 different tracks and I switched from R11 to Q900 (No EQ/Full Range) and wrote down which speaker she thought sounded better for each track. The results were 5x R11 5x Q900. Did with EQ 5x 2x Q900 2x R11 and 1x “I don’t know are you done”. She said she could not really hear much if any difference. Maybe one seemed clearer but other nicer. I did the same test while she kept track and I scored the same with no EQ and set to full range 5x R11 5x KEF.

Testing blindly I was certain I would be able to identify the R11. Both speakers sounded nearly the same to me and I did not have a SQ preference. Both clear, same soundstage and depth. When I use EQ subjectively I do not notice a difference I can consistently identify. As I write this I am listening to my stereo but have no idea if the Q900 are playing or the R11.

My hearing was tested six months ago and it is in the average range with some hearing loss in my right ear at spoken frequencies. My wife’s hearing seems to be better than mine.

Anyone have any idea how this is possible? Is there something I need to do to get the R11 to steal the show. I have included pictures of the setup and frequency response of the speakers from soundstage and stereophile.

There's a reason Harman does these comparisons with a single speaker, you know....they make it more sensitive to difference.

then again , if that difference goes away in stereo, why care?
 
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seanhyatt

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but what you wanted with the r11? what do you expected?
I mean, it sounds loud and clear, better in dance music with bass... you are happy with the soundstage width?... what else?

To my ears so far it does not sound thousands of dollars better. Diminishing returns.
 

fpitas

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it depends

on how good your speakers are
Yeah, some of the high-end roadapples Amir has tested here could use help well above 500Hz.
 
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