Used Kef Reference 3 Meta with reduced warranty

[exm]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread. I really feel that your Denon x4800h and the Audyssey RoomEq is to blame. Any luck yourself? The Ref 3 Meta should be absolutely fantastic with plenty of bass.

 

[soerenssen]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread. I really feel that your Denon x4800h and the Audyssey RoomEq is to blame. Any luck yourself? The Ref 3 Meta should be absolutely fantastic with plenty of bass.

No worries, I'm very far from being done anyways

I sent back the Denon along with the NCX500 and I'm currently driving the KEFs with a 22-year old Yamaha rx 440 rds receiver. By now, I'm pretty sure that the culprit is the room. When I set the LR to full range in the receiver menu and I'm walking around in the room, there is a nice tight bass at the back wall and in the corners and also if I stand up and get closer to the speakers within the triangle, but it's completely gone when I sit down in the MLP (which is around 1.5m far from the back wall, but that's unfortunately not close enough to the wall to enjoy that bass). The more I pull out the speakers from the front wall the better the bass. The more I push the couch to the rear wall the better the bass. The more I bring the couch and the speakers to each other and the more I sit up in the couch the better the bass.

So, instead of upgrading electronics, I shifted my focus on room acoustics and I'm now learning / researching how to treat the room at reflection points and wherever there is excessive bass (bass traps in the corner, absorber on the back wall, thicker rug, absorber / curtain on the side glass wall) to avoid nulls at the MLP. I'm going to do some REW measurements too with this old setup, so I can see the starting point before implementing any changes, but I first have to get familiar with the software and get a proper mic stand.

Dirac ART announcements are close, but I'm not sure I can get away with a software-only solution, at least in my current room.

 

[soerenssen]

Im still waiting for the measurements xD

Now that i don't have the Denon and the NCx500 anymore, I am trying to figure out what would be better way to measure the in-room response in REW. I have an old Yamaha RXV440RDS receiver driving the KEFs and the Wiim Pro connected to the receiver via SPDIF.
From the Macbook I could connect to the Wiim wireless or I could use the 3.5mm jack output of the Macbook to connect directly to the analog input of the Yamaha or Wiim Pro. What do you recommend?

 

[soerenssen]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread. I really feel that your Denon x4800h and the Audyssey RoomEq is to blame. Any luck yourself? The Ref 3 Meta should be absolutely fantastic with plenty of bass.

I fully believe that it has a nice bass. As mentioned, my living room is open from one side, and there is a corridor leading to other rooms (like bedroom, bathroom, etc.). Those rooms are usually kept open because we have a cat who wants to be able to access all the available areas (of course). I was in another room yesterday while the KEFs were playing around -45dB on the Yamaha receiver and - besides the corners and back wall of the living room / listening area - in that other room which is around 9-10 meters away at the end of the corridor, I could still feel the pressure of the bass. It was similar to when my active sub is on (this time it was turned off and they were playing full range). So the bass is there, but not where I'd like it to be (at the MLP in the living room it's gone completely).
Of course in certain tracks/genres like hip hop it cannot go low enough, so it really depends on your music preference. And for deep bass you can still integrate a sub.

Next will be the REW measurement, once I figure out how I should do it with the current setup. I ordered a mic stand too, it's on its way.
I will also try to place some DIY bass traps (pillows, blankets, whatever I can find here) into all the corners of the living room and maybe a matress to the back wall to test if that'd be a good direction / first step to start with some passive room treatment.

 

[exm]

I have Reference 5s in a room far from perfect, without any room treatment. But I really enjoy the speakers as-is although I'm fully aware I'm not obtaining the maximal out of them. However, I had R11s and R900s before (same room, same location) so I can say with confidence that these speaker rock. Especially the bass is night-and-day compared to the R11s.

 

[soerenssen]

I have Reference 5s in a room far from perfect, without any room treatment. But I really enjoy the speakers as-is although I'm fully aware I'm not obtaining the maximal out of them. However, I had R11s and R900s before (same room, same location) so I can say with confidence that these speaker rock. Especially the bass is night-and-day compared to the R11s.

I have several hot spots for sure - corners, back wall or standing between the two speakers or in the middle of the triangle, and recently I found another one: if I climb up onto something to get closer to the ceiling (3.20m), there's plenty of bass there too, would say more than in the corners.
Do you think having bass traps in the corners and thick absorbers on the back wall / ceiling could help "redirect" the bass where it should be?
Of course, current electronics is another suspect (this old receiver is very far from optimal so I'll upgrade it soon, and engage DLBC or ART in addition), but I am now focusing on room acoustics / treatment since it's not a total lack of bass. It's not that I don't have it anywhere in the house.
In addition, both speakers are wobbing on the ground (hardwood floor). I's using the original spikes, but seriously considering a set of Gaia II now.
I will also try to pull the speakers completely away from the wall, almost to the middle of the room, and push the couch all the way to the back wall. But that cannot be a permanent setup (even if it works) unfortunately.

 

[bo_knows]

I have several hot spots for sure - corners, back wall or standing between the two speakers or in the middle of the triangle, and recently I found another one: if I climb up onto something to get closer to the ceiling (3.20m), there's plenty of bass there too, would say more than in the corners.
Do you think having bass traps in the corners and thick absorbers on the back wall / ceiling could help "redirect" the bass where it should be?
Of course, current electronics is another suspect (this old receiver is very far from optimal so I'll upgrade it soon, and engage DLBC or ART in addition), but I am now focusing on room acoustics / treatment since it's not a total lack of bass. It's not that I don't have it anywhere in the house.
In addition, both speakers are wobbing on the ground (hardwood floor). I's using the original spikes, but seriously considering a set of Gaia II now.
I will also try to pull the speakers completely away from the wall, almost to the middle of the room, and push the couch all the way to the back wall. But that cannot be a permanent setup (even if it works) unfortunately.

"Do you think having bass traps in the corners and thick absorbers on the back wall / ceiling could help "redirect" the bass where it should be?"

Above 80Hz, maybe. First, you need to figure out at what frequency is the dip that you are noticing at MLP. If this is around the 50-60Hz range, you will need to move your seating position. This could be a complex issue since you have open space. Pillows, regular bass traps, curtains, and floor rugs are a joke and will do NOTHING to tame the frequency range below 60Hz.

 

[bo_knows]

Check out this active solution:

PSI Audio AVAA C20 - Active Bass Trap

Unique: easy to set up and move, no calibration required, as efficient as passive absorbers 25 times its size, the AVAA C20 typically reduces the resonance time of all room modes between 15 Hz and 150 Hz by up to 50%.

www.psiaudio.swiss

or you could go my route:

Diaphragmal LF Absorbers (aka LMBT) damping and calculation

Hello everyone Now I'm more inclined towards making some diaphragmal LF absorbers with limp membranes. But there are few questions that still unclear. 1) Can I trust to http://www.acousticmodelling.com/multi.php and if yes - which porous model is most realistic below 200 Hz ? Just for...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Diaphragmal LF Absorbers (aka LMBT) damping and calculation

Hello everyone Now I'm more inclined towards making some diaphragmal LF absorbers with limp membranes. But there are few questions that still unclear. 1) Can I trust to http://www.acousticmodelling.com/multi.php and if yes - which porous model is most realistic below 200 Hz ? Just for...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[soerenssen]

or you could go my route:

Diaphragmal LF Absorbers (aka LMBT) damping and calculation

Hello everyone Now I'm more inclined towards making some diaphragmal LF absorbers with limp membranes. But there are few questions that still unclear. 1) Can I trust to http://www.acousticmodelling.com/multi.php and if yes - which porous model is most realistic below 200 Hz ? Just for...

www.audiosciencereview.com

"I've measured the SPL response of the 50Hz tone and most of the higher readings are at the bottom and top of the front wall."
Besides the MLP, where else should I measure the response to get the full picture?
It sounds like once you identified a dip in a specific range at the MLP, you started looking for it at other areas of the room and specifically targetted that range (in your case, 50Hz).

Edit: Going through your thread now I'm starting to understand your approach, thanks! After doing the initial measurements, moving the speakers and/or the couch and re-measure at the MLP will be a good next step. Of course I won't add anything (like acoustic panels) until I have a clear picture and I will share the measurements here too.

 

[soerenssen]

PSI Audio AVAA C20 - Active Bass Trap

Unique: easy to set up and move, no calibration required, as efficient as passive absorbers 25 times its size, the AVAA C20 typically reduces the resonance time of all room modes between 15 Hz and 150 Hz by up to 50%.

www.psiaudio.swiss

Similar to ART, but combined with some hardware to make it plug and play?

 

[soerenssen]

@bo_knows I don't see it on your photo, but do you use isolation feet like Gaia under the KEFs? Did you notice any difference?

 

[bo_knows]

@bo_knows I don't see it on your photo, but do you use isolation feet like Gaia under the KEFs? Did you notice any difference?

PM sent

 

[soerenssen]

I am planning to build a dedicated 2.2 or 2.4 DLBC system using an external multichannel balanced DAC.
Can you recommend subwoofers that could be nicely matched both tonally and visually (white glossy or matte) to the KEFs? Primary use will be home cinema (connected to an AVR too), but in my current untreated room (35m2, open space to other rooms) I will use them for stereo music as well. Max budget is 3000 EUR.

Some candidates that I found so far in the sub comparison chart from @sweetchaos:
- 4x SB1000 Pro or 3x SB2000 Pro. Dual DAC setup required (balanced for LR, unbalanced for the subs).
- 2x KEF KF92, with white vinyl wrap. Same as SVS: dual DAC setup required (balanced for LR, unbalanced for the subs).
- 3x used Arendal 1723 2 (discontinued). White color, both XLR and RCA inputs, so I can connect them to the AVR (via RCA) and the balanced DAC (XLR) at the same time without having to switch.

For the subs placed to the rear wall I will need longer (10-12m) RCA cables, hence I'm considering balanced subs too.

 

[Battlebeast]

Arendal, 3 used or 2 new

 

[Ciobi69]

I am planning to build a dedicated 2.2 or 2.4 DLBC system using an external multichannel balanced DAC.
Can you recommend subwoofers that could be nicely matched both tonally and visually (white glossy or matte) to the KEFs? Primary use will be home cinema (connected to an AVR too), but in my current untreated room (35m2, open space to other rooms) I will use them for stereo music as well. Max budget is 3000 EUR.

Some candidates that I found so far in the sub comparison chart from @sweetchaos:
- 4x SB1000 Pro or 3x SB2000 Pro. Dual DAC setup required (balanced for LR, unbalanced for the subs).
- 2x KEF KF92, with white vinyl wrap. Same as SVS: dual DAC setup required (balanced for LR, unbalanced for the subs).
- 3x used Arendal 1723 2 (discontinued). White color, both XLR and RCA inputs, so I can connect them to the AVR (via RCA) and the balanced DAC (XLR) at the same time without having to switch.

For the subs placed to the rear wall I will need longer (10-12m) RCA cables, hence I'm considering balanced subs too.

Arendal

 

[soerenssen]

Arendal, 3 used or 2 new

I'm looking at new ones now, 2x 1723 1S or 3x 1961 1S (for better seat-to-seat consistency) could fit into the budget and there are measurements available too.
They seem to be quite close on paper, at 20Hz the smaller 1961 even has the upper hand. I like the smaller form factor of the 1961 but the 1723 is THX certified.

 

[Ciobi69]

I'm looking at new ones now, 2x 1723 1S or 3x 1961 1S (for better seat-to-seat consistency) could fit into the budget and there are measurements available too.
They seem to be quite close on paper, at 20Hz the smaller 1961 even has the upper hand. I like the smaller form factor of the 1961 but the 1723 is THX certified.

For Subwoofer depends on the listening db top bit honesty For home theater i would go with the bigger ones , myself i have 2 18 inch in open space 35mq , but I could Be satisfied with 2 15 inches but you know .. if you go with the bigger ones you would not ever regret it once you try a very good Subwoofer

 

[soerenssen]

For Subwoofer depends on the listening db top bit honesty For home theater i would go with the bigger ones , myself i have 2 18 inch in open space 35mq , but I could Be satisfied with 2 15 inches but you know .. if you go with the bigger ones you would not ever regret it once you try a very good Subwoofer

I believe you.
Arendal's largest driver seems to be 13.8in. Audiphonics is currently offering the Monolith M15 V2 for 1790EUR, but it's a 60kg beast..
Oh, and currently I'm planning to build this system in a 4th floor apartment. But we are moving in a few months anyway...

 

[soerenssen]

For Subwoofer depends on the listening db top bit honesty For home theater i would go with the bigger ones , myself i have 2 18 inch in open space 35mq , but I could Be satisfied with 2 15 inches but you know .. if you go with the bigger ones you would not ever regret it once you try a very good Subwoofer

In order to choose the right sub, besides room size and frequency response (the KEF's will be high-passed at 50-60Hz), what other factors should I consider to match them with the mains? Reading comments about the KF92 being able to integrate better with the Ref 3 compared to others, I'm wondering how much does it actually matters if the crossovers / delay / phase correction / etc. all will be handled by DLBC.

 

[soerenssen]

I forgot to mention that I still have an old 30cm Magnat ported sub. If Audyssey can integrate it with the 2 new sealed subs and the mains, I could keep that for HT.
Note: It would be Denon+Audyssey for HT and a multi-channel DAC+DLBC for music.