KEF R11 vs. Q900 Blind test can’t tell difference! HELP

[seanhyatt]

KEF R11 are on closeout so I decided to pickup a pair to replace my Q900. After days of listening the R11 seemed to sound similar to the Q900. I was expecting a bigger difference moving up a series.

I had thought about returning the R11 and wanted to compare them next to each. I setup an a/b speaker switcher. First I had my wife listening to 10 different tracks and I switched from R11 to Q900 (No EQ/Full Range) and wrote down which speaker she thought sounded better for each track. The results were 5x R11 5x Q900. Did with EQ 5x 2x Q900 2x R11 and 1x “I don’t know are you done”. She said she could not really hear much if any difference. Maybe one seemed clearer but other nicer. I did the same test while she kept track and I scored the same with no EQ and set to full range 5x R11 5x KEF.

Testing blindly I was certain I would be able to identify the R11. Both speakers sounded nearly the same to me and I did not have a SQ preference. Both clear, same soundstage and depth. When I use EQ subjectively I do not notice a difference I can consistently identify. As I write this I am listening to my stereo but have no idea if the Q900 are playing or the R11.

My hearing was tested six months ago and it is in the average range with some hearing loss in my right ear at spoken frequencies. My wife’s hearing seems to be better than mine.

Anyone have any idea how this is possible? Is there something I need to do to get the R11 to steal the show. I have included pictures of the setup and frequency response of the speakers from soundstage and stereophile.

 

[Ron Texas]

It's possible because in your room with the tested tracks the two speakers do sound the same.

 

[seanhyatt]

Possibly. The room is on the dead side but those ceiling don’t help.

 

[test1223]

KEF R11 are on closeout so I decided to pickup a pair to replace my Q900. After days of listening the R11 seemed to sound similar to the Q900. I was expecting a bigger difference moving up a series.

I had thought about returning the R11 and wanted to compare them next to each. I setup an a/b speaker switcher. First I had my wife listening to 10 different tracks and I switched from R11 to Q900 (No EQ/Full Range) and wrote down which speaker she thought sounded better for each track. The results were 5x R11 5x Q900. Did with EQ 5x 2x Q900 2x R11 and 1x “I don’t know are you done”. She said she could not really hear much if any difference. Maybe one seemed clearer but other nicer. I did the same test while she kept track and I scored the same with no EQ and set to full range 5x R11 5x KEF.

Testing blindly I was certain I would be able to identify the R11. Both speakers sounded nearly the same to me and I did not have a SQ preference. Both clear, same soundstage and depth. When I use EQ subjectively I do not notice a difference I can consistently identify. As I write this I am listening to my stereo but have no idea if the Q900 are playing or the R11.

My hearing was tested six months ago and it is in the average range with some hearing loss in my right ear at spoken frequencies. My wife’s hearing seems to be better than mine.

Anyone have any idea how this is possible? Is there something I need to do to get the R11 to steal the show. I have included pictures of the setup and frequency response of the speakers from soundstage and stereophile.

That is a typical outcome of a real blind test with speakers which have a similar spinorama and no major errors. You can train you critical hearing to faster and better identify the small differences. But essentially the outcome in terms of preference won't change much.

 

[seanhyatt]

I am thinking return the R11 and stick with the Q900 and save the $3000. But then I think it is something else (maybe the room, me etc.) and they look so cool.

 

[test1223]

Possibly. The room is on the dead side but those ceiling don’t help.

Yes the room might limit the ability to distinguish speakers better but if both speakers don't have major errors (which I assume to be the case here). In this case both will improve about the same and sound about the same due to the most certainly similar spinorama data.

 

[Ron Texas]

I am thinking return the R11 and stick with the Q900 and save the $3000. But then I think it is something else (maybe the room, me etc.) and they look so cool.

Sounds like a plan. Enjoy the music.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

if you wanted bigger soundstage, the R11 meta was the speaker who have wider soundstage

 

[seanhyatt]

For some companies, higher-priced speakers may exhibit higher maximum output, possibly to accommodate EQ. Not only that, but bass extension and lower levels of distortion in the bass are frequently advantages of higher-priced model within a brand. (Those characteristics don't come cheap.)

If you don't play your music loud, if you don't play music with extremely low bass, and if you are not sensitive to bass distortion, then you wouldn't hear the difference, would you?

It's as if you had a minivan to go get the kids from school versus a Lamborghini Countach to do the same. Although there is a tremendous difference on the racetrack, there isn't any difference in city traffic.

Jim

Good point. I just tested the R11 and Q900 and the Q 900 can not play as loud without the uniQ loosing control and distorting. The Stereophile review back in the day noticed this too. The R11 does not exhibit the same loss of control and distortion at higher volumes. So there is an audible difference at higher volume levels.

 

[seanhyatt]

if you wanted bigger soundstage, the R11 meta was the speaker who have wider soundstage

I wish but $6000 for speakers is too much for me. The old R11 are on closeout for $3000.

 

[Tangband]

KEF R11 are on closeout so I decided to pickup a pair to replace my Q900. After days of listening the R11 seemed to sound similar to the Q900. I was expecting a bigger difference moving up a series.

I had thought about returning the R11 and wanted to compare them next to each. I setup an a/b speaker switcher. First I had my wife listening to 10 different tracks and I switched from R11 to Q900 (No EQ/Full Range) and wrote down which speaker she thought sounded better for each track. The results were 5x R11 5x Q900. Did with EQ 5x 2x Q900 2x R11 and 1x “I don’t know are you done”. She said she could not really hear much if any difference. Maybe one seemed clearer but other nicer. I did the same test while she kept track and I scored the same with no EQ and set to full range 5x R11 5x KEF.

Testing blindly I was certain I would be able to identify the R11. Both speakers sounded nearly the same to me and I did not have a SQ preference. Both clear, same soundstage and depth. When I use EQ subjectively I do not notice a difference I can consistently identify. As I write this I am listening to my stereo but have no idea if the Q900 are playing or the R11.

My hearing was tested six months ago and it is in the average range with some hearing loss in my right ear at spoken frequencies. My wife’s hearing seems to be better than mine.

Anyone have any idea how this is possible? Is there something I need to do to get the R11 to steal the show. I have included pictures of the setup and frequency response of the speakers from soundstage and stereophile.

This is a case where you have dicovered that cheaper speakers from the same brand may sound the same , or even better than the more expensive ones. This is a fact, and it has happened many times for many brands. Im not saying that this is the case , but your ears dont lie and youre gonna use the loudspeaker for music listening. If theres not a difference in enjoyment between the two speakers, you probably should put your money on a better amplifier or a better digital source instead.

Speculations:

Im sure the Kef r11 and q900 uses different crossover topologies. The r11 has probably steeper crossover slopes and the q900 might have a simpler crossover using a first order crossover for the bass drivers. This probably makes the r11 measurements to look better , but many times I have discovered that a first order crossover might sound just as good or even better .

The loudspeaker boxes of r11 is probably better made with less resonanses, but many times I have discovered that I like the sound from boxes with more resonances especially when listening to rock music.

KEF Q900 loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

”Despite its affordable price, KEF's Q900 offers superb measured performance, and the new Uni-Q driver, with Tangerine waveguide, gives much more uniform dispersion than have earlier Uni-Q designs.—John Atkinson”

 

[dlaloum]

A rule of thumb I cooked up 35 years ago when I was working in a "Hi-Fi" store....

Each barely noticeable step up in quality doubles the price

To have a substantive " yes that is a real improvement" subjective impact - you need to go up at least 3 of the "barely noticeable" steps...

So, the multiplier for a substantive improvement is typically 8x the price....

Next step up from a $3000 set of speakers for substantive improvement is therefore $24,000. (ie: one order of magnitude...)

Having said that - there are bargains, value leaders in the marketplace, etc....

And when it comes to speakers - differing speakers can sound substantially different without necessarily being "better" - there are a heck of a lot of sideways steps.... better bass, but worse midrange, differing dispersion pattern, etc....

 

[Beave]

The Q900 has significant cabinet resonances in the midbass. They may or may not be audible, but I would expect the R11 bass to be cleaner.

The Q900 also has resonances from the midrange cone that show up in the mid to high treble. They might impart some harshness to some material.

 

[Beave]

This is a case where you have dicovered that cheaper speakers from the same brand may sound the same , or even better than the more expensive ones. This is a fact, and it has happened many times for many brands.

Im sure the Kef r11 and q900 uses different crossover topologies. The r11 has probably steeper crossover slopes and the q900 might have a simpler crossover using a first order crossover for the bass drivers. This probably makes the r11 measurements to look better , but many times I have discovered that a first order crossover might sound just as good or even better .

The loudspeaker boxes of r11 is probably better made with less resonanses, but many times I have discovered that I like the sound from boxes with more resonanses especially when listening to rock music.

Stereophile measurements of the Q900 here: Stereophile KEF Q900 measurements

There is no crossover between the Uni-Q and the woofer. The speaker is a 2 1/2 way.

 

[Tangband]

Stereophile measurements of the Q900 here: Stereophile KEF Q900 measurements

There is no crossover between the Uni-Q and the woofer. The speaker is a 2 1/2 way.

Yes, I just noticed. Less is more ?

 

[kemmler3D]

From what I can tell, the FR of both of these speakers is pretty similar. So I think you're mostly going to hear a difference if you are in a position to really notice resonances under 100hz, (i.e. your room response is really nice, which apparently it is not) or like others have said, if you're really pushing the SPL. Your room might be too small to require that kind of volume day-to-day, so the R11 might not be a useful upgrade for you. I'd say return the R11s and buy like, 4 subs and something to run DSP with...

 

[Tangband]

KEF R11 are on closeout so I decided to pickup a pair to replace my Q900. After days of listening the R11 seemed to sound similar to the Q900. I was expecting a bigger difference moving up a series.

I had thought about returning the R11 and wanted to compare them next to each. I setup an a/b speaker switcher. First I had my wife listening to 10 different tracks and I switched from R11 to Q900 (No EQ/Full Range) and wrote down which speaker she thought sounded better for each track. The results were 5x R11 5x Q900. Did with EQ 5x 2x Q900 2x R11 and 1x “I don’t know are you done”. She said she could not really hear much if any difference. Maybe one seemed clearer but other nicer. I did the same test while she kept track and I scored the same with no EQ and set to full range 5x R11 5x KEF.

Testing blindly I was certain I would be able to identify the R11. Both speakers sounded nearly the same to me and I did not have a SQ preference. Both clear, same soundstage and depth. When I use EQ subjectively I do not notice a difference I can consistently identify. As I write this I am listening to my stereo but have no idea if the Q900 are playing or the R11.

My hearing was tested six months ago and it is in the average range with some hearing loss in my right ear at spoken frequencies. My wife’s hearing seems to be better than mine.

Anyone have any idea how this is possible? Is there something I need to do to get the R11 to steal the show. I have included pictures of the setup and frequency response of the speakers from soundstage and stereophile.

Looking at the pictures from your setup, the q900 may or may not have an advantage in sound because they are place with less distance between them . Every speaker pair always sounds the best at a certain place in a specific room, thats why its hard to do valuable A/B tests. You could always swap the speakers so the r11:s are in the middle and check If the sound gets better.

 

[YSC]

in most real roomswhen the speakers have similar directivity and beam width and if both without major flaw, the room itself will bury the minor technical differences, so if it's me I would save the $3000 and have some other form of entertainment with wife

 

[polmuaddib]

I am thinking return the R11 and stick with the Q900 and save the $3000. But then I think it is something else (maybe the room, me etc.) and they look so cool.

Return the R11? You will do no such thing. Few things you need to do:
1. Never do blind tests anymore.
2. Find the justification for yourself and your wife to keep the cooler, more expensive one.
3. Sell all of them and get the Meta ones?
4. Maybe not take me seriously...

 

[Tangband]

Kal Rubinson did like the sound from the q900 speakers :

KEF Q900 loudspeaker Page 2

www.stereophile.com