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How NOT to set up speakers and room treatment ( Goldensound)

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DanielT

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Speaking of mixing rooms, formal study was done to see if there is preference for side wall absorption, diffusion or reflection when creating a mix in a controlled environment. Result was that it did not matter but when the testers were asked to express an opinion, most preferred a reflective side (painted drywall). From peer reviewed journal of AES paper, The Practical Effects of Lateral Energy in Critical Listening Environments

"2.1.1 Main Effects
The only statistically significant effect was Music F (2, 123) = 5.71, p = 0.0034. However, the main factor for this experiment, Treatment, was not found to be statistically significant F (2, 7.6) = 0.35, p = 0.7."

"2.3 Subjects’ Preference
After the experiment each subject was asked which acoustic treatment created the best listening condition for mixing. Eight (8) subjects decided it is Diffusion, seven (7) decided Absorption, and eleven (11) decided Reflection. We decided to test subjects’ level preference and variance performance based on that information (Fig. 11)."


View attachment 288953

So once again, we need to operate from the position that sidewalls are beneficial unless proven otherwise (in the case of listener). Instructing people to blindly absorb them is just wrong. What seems intuitive is just wrong here. Two ears and brain don't work in the way people imagine....
Whether side wall absorption be something to have or not, that is a question.

But it should be easy to test blindly if some hifi, sound-interested people get together. Do they get the same results as in the test you referenced? I know that it is not possible to compare directly due to acoustic differences in listening rooms where the tests are carried out, but still.:)

Such a test should also be performed with different types of music. It would be interesting to read about the results of that test.:)
 
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Axo1989

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Oddly enough, Famous Blue Raincoat was recorded in 1986.

Yes, I should clarify in that post, not an example of music I listen to (hence my observation on lacking some modern effects) but interesting illustrations for this discussion.

https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/room-reflections-human-adaptation
“There is no single “right” way to do things. About 37 years ago, when I was setting up the NRC listening room, I ran a drapery track down the front portion of the side walls and across the wall of the room behind the loudspeakers, hanging 4-foot sections of densely-folded heavy drapes. The track was about 6 inches from the wall for good broadband absorption. These could be moved around, and in the case of the sidewall reflections, we quickly found that things sounded better if they were pushed back for more "spacious" classical music, and pulled out for "in your face" rock/pop stuff. I knew a couple of stereo enthusiasts who copied the idea at home. I concluded that, in terms of loudspeaker/room combinations, one size does not fit all.”

https://gearspace.com/board/showpost.php?p=15187387&postcount=61
“Music with lots of decorrelated sounds, classical for example, is sometimes enhanced by reflections, although coincident-mic recordings may benefit from a lack of reflections - letting the direct sounds be more dominant (the Blumlein stereo effects work best in an almost anechoic situation).
Pan-potted recordings (the majority of pop) end up delivering essentially monophonic sounds from left and right loudspeakers, and these may well benefit from a bit of spatial enhancement. Otherwise we are left with what really annoys me about stereo: a relatively spatial set of phantom images created by both loudspeakers, and two "anchor" images created by the left and right loudspeakers playing solo. “

Classical concertgoers can be divided into two broad categories, those who prefer clarity/proximity vs reverberance/width. It seems likely to me that home listeners may be similarly characterized, though I believe that there may be a third category for whom timbre and/or phase are particularly important (I wonder if this accounts for the relative stair step directivity index curves of many Harman designs, also those users who separately prefer wide-baffle or single drive/wide ranger designs). I've been trying to refine the information in this post further: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-on-readings-of-lokki-bech-toole-et-al.27540/

I've read these examples at various stages. Often the case that Toole's discussion is not as one-dimensional as it is sometimes represented to be (by acolytes and detractors both). Referring to pop as pan-potted is an oversimplification now, but discussion of different listening preferences/requirements holds up.
 
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Bjorn

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Oddly enough, Famous Blue Raincoat was recorded in 1986.

https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/room-reflections-human-adaptation
“There is no single “right” way to do things. About 37 years ago, when I was setting up the NRC listening room, I ran a drapery track down the front portion of the side walls and across the wall of the room behind the loudspeakers, hanging 4-foot sections of densely-folded heavy drapes. The track was about 6 inches from the wall for good broadband absorption. These could be moved around, and in the case of the sidewall reflections, we quickly found that things sounded better if they were pushed back for more "spacious" classical music, and pulled out for "in your face" rock/pop stuff. I knew a couple of stereo enthusiasts who copied the idea at home. I concluded that, in terms of loudspeaker/room combinations, one size does not fit all.”

https://gearspace.com/board/showpost.php?p=15187387&postcount=61
“Music with lots of decorrelated sounds, classical for example, is sometimes enhanced by reflections, although coincident-mic recordings may benefit from a lack of reflections - letting the direct sounds be more dominant (the Blumlein stereo effects work best in an almost anechoic situation).
Pan-potted recordings (the majority of pop) end up delivering essentially monophonic sounds from left and right loudspeakers, and these may well benefit from a bit of spatial enhancement. Otherwise we are left with what really annoys me about stereo: a relatively spatial set of phantom images created by both loudspeakers, and two "anchor" images created by the left and right loudspeakers playing solo. “

Classical concertgoers can be divided into two broad categories, those who prefer clarity/proximity vs reverberance/width. It seems likely to me that home listeners may be similarly characterized, though I believe that there may be a third category for whom timbre and/or phase are particularly important (I wonder if this accounts for the relative stair step directivity index curves of many Harman designs, also those users who separately prefer wide-baffle or single drive/wide ranger designs). I've been trying to refine the information in this post further: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-on-readings-of-lokki-bech-toole-et-al.27540/
Drapes are not broadband treatment. Quite the opposite. And using an 6" air gap doesn't help. It actually worsens the absorption because one is removing the pressure behind the device.

Another thing to mention is that covering too large surface area with high frequency absorption is generally bad as it makes the sound too dead. Surgically placed treatment to maintain energy is very important.
 

Eetu

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Btw this is what Floyd Toole writes about treating a dedicated listening space in chapter 22.3.3:

"The center portions of the front and rear walls are mostly absorbing,
with scattering devices toward the sides of the rear wall. All absorbers,
wherever they are located, must be not less than 3 to 4 in. deep.
■ The side walls are a mixture of refl ection, absorption and scattering/
diffusing devices. Diffusers designed to scatter the sound horizontally
should be located in the region about one foot below and about three
feet above ear level."

"the effects of these
side-wall reflections range from neutral to slightly beneficial. In any
event, they are not large effects, so the choice can be left to the
designers"


And so on and so on.. He also says the decay time should be between 0.2 and 0.5s and "the key is not the number,
but the sound. The room should sound comfortable for conversation."


To me this doesn't clash with the Golden Sound video at all.
 

FrankW

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I agree for the price that its not great but as said I personally wouldn't call it absolutely terrible,
That type of broad Q flare will (and was https://www.stereophile.com/content/focal-sopra-no3-loudspeaker-measurements) be audible. There is no excuse for it, especially at that price. And that also misses the point, this thread is about some headphone audiophile who most likely bought them purely on looks and listening in echo chambers where such speakers are well regarded. Then of course, finding plastering his sidewalls and others with pillows audio-visually improved things.
I also doubt that @Floyd Toole ex bipoles had a really smoother polar than that. Maybe he will chime in, who knows? ;)
The M1's were smoother where it counts, front and back https://www.stereophile.com/content/mirage-m-1si-loudspeaker-measurements
 

Cubic Spline

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Here's a quote of Mr. Toole about side wall reflections to add a bit to the discussion.
Source : from Bert Stoltenborg (an acoustician) here https://gearspace.com/board/showpost.php?p=15187387&postcount=61

"Hi Bert.

People who say I dismiss room reflections as unimportant - and there are a few, it seems - simply have not read or understood my book. It is patently obvious that room treatment is necessary, if only to establish conditions suitable for comfortable conversation. This requires reverberation times under 0.5 second. This alone, also pretty much ensures that film dialog will be clearly understood.

The most debated issue relates to first lateral reflections. Some of those arguing vociferously in favor of eliminating them seem to have a conflict of interest, being providers of acoustical materials. Others have more reasoned arguments. I say up front that there can be no universally satisfactory answer because there is no universal scheme for recording stereo or multichannel signals. Only through controlled listening tests can we get useful insights, and these are in short supply. In the meantime opinions reign supreme, and there are many of them.

In the book I show results of several double-blind evaluations, some done by me, some done by others, showing that listeners tend not to be disturbed by lateral reflections, and many even prefer them. I also point out that the professional side of the industry almost universally feels the need to eliminate them. I suggest, respectfully, that humans have a remarkable ability to learn, to adapt, and that recording engineers spending their days adding, adjusting, and removing - at will - delayed sounds from mixes undoubtedly are more highly sensitized to these sounds than are lay listeners.
This probably applies to any audio professional, acoustical consultant��r enthusiast who focuses enough attention on this task. We learn to hear things and, once heard, they tend not to go away. I well remember that during the resonance detection experiments, we all became extremely skilled at hearing and identifying resonances. During the tests, and for some
time afterward, we were hearing little resonances in everyday life that normally would have been totally unnoticed. From such things paranoia is born, and if we had taken this to an extreme, we would have damped our wine glasses.


For stereo listening I have found that it very much depends on the program. Music with lots of decorrelated sounds, classical for example, is sometimes enhanced by reflections, although coincident-mic recordings may benefit from a lack of reflections - letting the direct sounds be more dominant (the Blumlien stereo effects work best in an almost anechoic situation).
Pan-potted recordings (the majority of pop) end up delivering essentially monophonic sounds from left and right loudspeakers, and these may well benefit from a bit of spatial enhancement. Otherwise we are left with what really annoys me about stereo: a relatively spatial set of phantom images created by both loudspeakers, and two "anchor" images created by the left and right loudspeakers playing solo. In some recordings we hear a whole string section emerging from a single loudspeaker. Not realistic, and not even pleasant. In the past, I have recommended that serious stereo listeners hang absorbent drapes along each side wall, pulling them out and pushing them back to suit what they are listening to. Our listening room at the National Research Council in Canada had this feature.

In the book, I put more emphasis on multichannel audio, where much of the important sound is delivered by the center loudspeaker, farthest from the side walls. In these situations I conclude that treatment of the side wall reflections is an option. There may be situations in which their effects are audible, but when all 5 or 7 channels are operating, it is improbable that natural room reflections have much of an effect. Other things being equal, the effects of the room are most audible when only a single loudspeaker is operating, and it becomes less so as other loudspeakers (channels) contribute additional uncorrelated sounds.

Of course the degree to which reflections are activated depends on the directional properties of loudspeakers, and the extent to which the loudspeakers are well behaved in their far off-axis responses (side wall reflections can be 50 degrees and more off axis). It has become clear over the years that, with hard side walls, the more uniform the off axis frequency response, the higher the rating of the loudspeaker. So, one has to wonder whether at least some of the dissatisfaction with reflective side walls has to do the misbehaving loudspeakers. Sadly, most manufacturers don't provide us with sufficient data to judge. And that is another, and I would argue much more worthy topic, to argue about.

I too think that the "Schroeder" diffuser is not a universal solution, with uniquely advantageous properties. The "time smear" argument might have merit in specific applications but it has yet to be demonstrated in any scientific way. I think the needs of large venue "live" performances are quite different from small room multichannel reproduction. The fact that curved surfaces deliver relatively strong single reflections over wide angular ranges can, in fact, be highly advantageous in some situations.

cheers,

Floyd"
 

thewas

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That type of broad Q flare will (and was https://www.stereophile.com/content/focal-sopra-no3-loudspeaker-measurements) be audible. There is no excuse for it, especially at that price.
As said for that price it is of course not welcome, now between audible and terrible there seems to be an individual interpretation difference.
Don't see them being really smoother nor at smaller or larger angles., here adjusted to similar size:

1685450801687.png

Both are quite flat and ok for smaller angles and then their directivity problems become more obvious.
 

Bjorn

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There are several ways to look at studies. The study that was linked to, The Practical Effects of Lateral Energy in Critical Listening Environments, one could also say that 15 preferred side wall treatment over 11 that didn't. ;)

After the experiment each subject was asked which acoustic treatment created the best listening condition for mixing.
Eight subjects decided it is Diffusion, seven decided Absorption, and eleven decided Reflection. We decided to test subjects’ level preference and variance performance based on that information

For those of you who haven't read it, one can mention that it was only performed with classical music.
In a departure from previous work, this testing was limited to a single musical genre. All of the musical material was taken from a single commercial release of soprano voice and orchestra. The excerpts used for testing were 30 second clips of three Richard Strauss songs, embodying a range of dynamics and musical textures.
And the "diffusion" was 2D Skyline diffusers that don't diffuse much (they are highly absorptive) and waste much of the energy in the wrong direction when placed at side walls. I have tested RPG Skylines several times in AB comparisons, and it's not something I would recommend other than in a tall ceiling in a theater for several listeners where budget is limited.

They say the low frequency didn't change, but which would be the case in many other rooms, and also depending on the type of the treatment.
All three treatment types exhibited similar LF at low frequencies, while LF in the higher frequencies spread appreciably.

Unlike some here, they are not being conclusive and understand that more research is needed. And such is the nature of true science.
It is interesting to note that the subjects’ preferred wall treatment did not correlate to the smallest recorded variance in each case. This will lead to several follow up studies of a more specific nature, including focus on other genres. Cursory investigation of elapsed time per trial has yielded some interesting trends and will be explored more deeply.

Future testing will certainly involve shorter trial periods, with a single treatment, to avoid subject fatigue and apathy. Conversely, motorized control of acoustic treatment changes will allow for quicker treatment alteration within single trials sets, thereby minimizing fatigue when all three treatments must be tested. Other alternate threads for future investigation will also include setting reverberation levels in a mix, as well as possible equalization tasks, in the same varied acoustic conditions.
 

PowerSerge

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No one is advocating for a "live room." The advice is to not automatically think *side* reflections are bad. And that any and all reflections need to be absorbed. An empty room with hard surfaces will indeed be too live for all but orchestral/big band music. You need to get the level of reverberations down which you can do either with acoustic material or everyday furnishing. Just don't overdo it if you are playing in stereo. For multi-channel, you can go to pretty dead region (RT60 of 0.2 seconds) and still be OK since spatial cues are provided by other channels.
Here is the frequency response in my room measured at my listening position. Green is left speaker, blue is right speaker. Let me know what you think:
Equator Image.jpg
 

Cubic Spline

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[...]
For those of you who haven't read it, one can mention that it was only performed with classical music.
[...]

This is very important. Listening to classical music (recorded in a big room that had probably longer decay time than most domestic rooms) vs listening electronic music with for example 40 Hz 1/16th bass notes above 120 bpm would clearly lead to different conclusions to the annoyance or not of masking from side reflections.

Edit : another thing to note is also the kind of audio material. In a typical untreated domestic room, a full mix will probably not bother you. Now take that mix and solo just the snare drum or just the kick drum, and you will be amazed by how much you can be bothered by the acoustics.
 

FrankW

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As said for that price it is of course not welcome, now between audible and terrible there seems to be an individual interpretation difference.
Yes, the Focal has a broadband flare coloration that will be heard both blind and in sighted review.
The M1s doesn't, it's "errors" are of omission, we know dips are less perceptible/offensive than peaks, especially wide ones https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/15_Mfrs_Publications/Harman_Int'l/AES-Other_Publications/Modification%20of_Timbre_by_Resonances.pdf
OTOH the M1s were among the highest rated listening tested at NRC. Blind, controlled of course.
I see this mostly as a misdirection on your part. Soft spot for Focals? It's 2023. The OP just bought those speakers, I doubt mid 90s M1s were a serious option.
OTOH, if you want to "Toole" personal centralize you argument, his current speakers are Salon2s. Those are still available new today for OP. Or at least this type speaker. So, that excuse doesn't hold water.
708Revfig06.jpg

417FSop3fig4.jpg

One has a huge broadband audible coloration peak, the other is super smooth and uncolored laterally, where it matters most. The "Error" of omission there will be lack of "airiness/space" in the very HF. Similar to the Focals Btw. Wanna wager which wins in a blind 2 ears test?
 

FrankW

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There are several ways to look at studies. The study that was linked to, The Practical Effects of Lateral Energy in Critical Listening Environments, one could also say that 15 preferred side wall treatment over 11 that didn't. ;)
To what extent does the mixing engineer’s listening environment influence
In contrast to earlier studies that used normal listeners, this study uses trained audio engineers to perform selected tasks in a variety of acoustic settings.
^^^^^^^^
CONSUMER *RE-PRODUCTION environment
 

keenly

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I have been in 4 rooms now with my speakers, and similiar set up. The room makes a HUGE difference I tell thee. Higher ceilings are way better. Clearer, cleaner more defined bass. 8ft ceilings, and sitting at 4ft= nightmare nulls.

Most so called bass traps and so called acoustic treatment does nothing below 100hz.
 

thewas

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Yes, the Focal has a broadband flare coloration that will be heard both blind and in sighted review.
The M1s doesn't, it's "errors" are of omission, we know dips are less perceptible/offensive than peaks,
No, it has similarly wide off-axis errors which also will be audible, not small dips which are agreedly rather inaudible.

OTOH the M1s were among the highest rated listening tested at NRC. Blind, controlled of course.
I know and this despite their non perfect directivity, hear hear everyone! ;)

I see this mostly as a misdirection on your part. Soft spot for Focals? It's 2023. The OP just bought those speakers, I doubt mid 90s M1s were a serious option.
OTOH, if you want to "Toole" personal centralize you argument, his current speakers are Salon2s. Those are still available new today for OP. Or at least this type speaker. So, that excuse doesn't hold water.
Not at all a soft spot for Focals, I just can't leave such deisgnations as "terrible" uncommented, like you just wrote the also not great directivity Mirage he had chosen back then were not at all "terrible" and even highest rated at the famous NRC tests. ;)

One has a huge broadband audible coloration peak, the other is super smooth and uncolored laterally, where it matters most. The "Error" of omission there will be lack of "airiness/space" in the very HF. Similar to the Focals Btw. Wanna wager which wins in a blind 2 ears test?
You don't need to tell me how well a modern Revel will do in a blind test, I never doubted that and even had made here a blind binaural listening test with some (see my signature for more), just that those Focals are "terrible" and your evasive argumentative maneuvers won't change that.
 

Philbo King

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It seems to me the guy making the video is doing a lot of things right. I am recording studio oriented and the things he suggests are exactly what one would want in a mixing environment: remove room 'colorations' in FR and IR to make the speaker-room system as transparent as possible.

This allows a mix product to sound as good as possible on the widest array of consumer listening systems. (i.e., If you can't clearly hear what is wrong with a mix, you can't fix the mix to compensate for it.)

I don't hold it against him that he's 24, that he doesn't have a degree in acoustics, and hasn't published scholarly tomes on sound reproduction. Results speak truest...

There is a basic conflict of desired result here. Listening room acoustics vs. studio mix room acoustics have differing goals and needs (not that he claims the video is about studio work). Listening rooms are for enjoyment, and any faults, nulls, peaks, RT60/30 issues have no lasting consequences beyond a temporary impression of "sounded pretty live and bouncy, with some bass notes too dead and others too ringy". Studio mix rooms with the same issues cause deficent product to be released.

The topic he covers is not new, unique or ground-breaking. It is one of thousands of similar tutorials that cover essentially the same ground. But the vitriol directed toward him (and his age) is a bit surprising to me.
 
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keenly

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yup

again from evolution.
we adapted that to see where the heck something was coming from so we wouldn’t be eaten alive.

put us in a non reflective room and our brains actually get confused more.
well to certain degrees.
We did not evolve in houses with plasterboard walls. Nature's surroundings do not bounce 300hz around.
 

FrankW

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No, it has similarly wide off-axis errors which also will be audible, not small dips which are agreedly rather inaudible.
They don't no matter how much you repeat it.
I know and this despite their non perfect directivity, hear hear everyone! ;)
Their directivity front and back are better than the Focals, which weren't an option for the OP in 2023
Not at all a soft spot for Focals, I just can't leave such deisgnations as "terrible" uncommented,
The Focals are terrible. In 2023, for $20k. Sorry to hear about your soft spot for them, but the off axis coloration flare is reality.
like you just wrote the also not great directivity Mirage he had chosen back then
The Mirage was chosen both for smoother off global off axis and listening test, of which there are none for Focals that you like and defend. So there is zero equivalence.
You don't need to tell me how well a modern Revel will do in a blind test,
I do when its Floyds current speaker OP could have bought, instead of the Focals you like.
your evasive argumentative maneuvers won't change that.
Any more than your evasion of year, price, broadband flare being audible and Red Herring of yesteryear.
 

FrankW

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While I agree with not few of the things you write, I wouldn't call above polar terrible and I don't think Toole would either, there are much worse designs to be called terrible. :D
Your speculative introduction of what Toole thinks is a misdirection smokescreen red herring of the discussion on your part
 
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