How NOT to set up speakers and room treatment ( Goldensound)

[amirm]

I see this as an area where Toole is merely trying to sell his own preference as the 'correct' approach.

Nonsense. His preference came from multiple tests of listener preferences showing side reflections are beneficial. Where does you preference come from? Stuff you have read online?

 

[tuga]

did you see me post a video with others who do it as work?

no. And you still aren’t seeing what I wrote.

Toole isn’t gospel.
I didn’t point that out.
I pointed out that a 24 year old kid with one room is DEFINITELY not gospel.

That kind of agressiveness towards the 'kid's' video comes trough as religious fervour and hatred.
Typical XXI Century narrowmindedness...

 

[abdo123]

Of course it can. The math forces it to be the case. Again, covered in Dr. Toole's book:

View attachment 288932

You can hear the effect so well. Bass becomes tight without hanging in the air as would be the case without EQ. The peaks are minimum phase so the outcome is preordained.

A cool bonus is that by taking advantage of the free amplification you get out of these peaks, you lower the distortion in the speaker and amplifier by using negative gain in the filter. The result is much cleaner sound. An absorber is doing this after the fact so can't do this.

I would like to further support this with my own measurements from my room. This absolutely works.

Room Treatments in the Real World

But having played in a wind ensemble and attended lots of concerts the concert halls aren't over dampened, usually they have some dampening combined with reflection panels. Those are diffusers, especially those with multiple various height surfaces. ...Which are usually a feature of concert...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Ofcourse it's not going to sound like a big/treated room where that mode doesn't exist because you still have to deal with the slow rising time of room modes but it's a very enjoyable experience never the less.

 

[amirm]

In spite of his attempts to prove it, Toole's preference is not universal.

Again, it is not his preference, it is that of majority of listeners when formally tested. To advocate otherwise means pretending that the preference of a few is what should be advocated.

 

[amirm]

That kind of agressiveness towards the 'kid's' video comes trough as religious fervour and hatred.

The annoyance is well placed when a person produces an entire video based on stuff he has read online, devoid of a single formal research or authoritative text. And said person has no education or work experience in this area. As to his age, he is also too young to have experienced this science by himself. Just because you too are doing the same thing he has doesn't mean you have to jump to defend him. Someone like him should preface his video with disclaimers saying he is not schooled in this area and what he says is what he has read online.

 

[tuga]

Nonsense. His preference came from multiple tests of listener preferences showing side reflections are beneficial. Where does you preference come from? Stuff you have read online?

Toole is not the only source, and I see some flaws in some of the research as well as in the interpretation of the data and statistically insignificant samples.
For example: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Acoustics-Small-Rooms-Mendel-Kleiner/dp/1138072834/

 

[tuga]

Again, it is not his preference, it is that of majority of listeners when formally tested. To advocate otherwise means pretending that the preference of a few is what should be advocated.

The preference testing is flawed.

 

[Nkam]

That kind of agressiveness towards the 'kid's' video comes trough as religious fervour and hatred.
Typical XXI Century narrowmindedness...

whaaa?

ok now I hurt your feelings.
facts don’t care about your feelings and neither do credentials.
yeah , sorry but he is a kid.
I can’t put him in the same boat as Dr Toole or people who have worked their a$$es off for decades.
unless you were just think you are entitled to everything.

nothing religious about credentials and hard work.

you choose who you go to have your surgery done. Someone who is a professional or someone pretending to be one.

would you be comfortable having a 24 year old perform surgery on you?

prob not. Is that because you are ‘ mean’ or whatever silly term you put next to it?
no

thats what experience and credentials are.
work hard and accomplish something great and see how awesome it feels

or you could take the easy route and diss people like Toole who worked hard for a doctorate and follow a wannabe l which is downright laughable.

work hard. Yeah it matters.

 

[Nkam]

The preference testing is flawed.

ok so do what peers do.
do your own research and help the audio world and science.

yeah that’s how it’s done.
parroting someone else’s observations is easy. Anyone can do that.

do your own research.
prove Toole wrong. Discover new things in audio
i guarantee you Toole will be the first to thank you.

 

[tuga]

The annoyance is well placed when a person produces an entire video based on stuff he has read online, devoid of a single formal research or authoritative text. And said person has no education or work experience in this area. As to his age, he is also too young to have experienced this science by himself. Just because you too are doing the same thing he has doesn't mean you have to jump to defend him. Someone like him should preface his video with disclaimers saying he is not schooled in this area and what he says is what he has read online.

Does he say in his video that his approach is supported by scientific research and should be taken as the last word in speaker setup and room treatment?

 

[tuga]

whaaa?

ok now I hurt your feelings.
facts don’t care about your feelings and neither do credentials.
yeah , sorry but he is a kid.
I can’t put him in the same boat as Dr Toole or people who have worked their a$$es off for decades.
unless you were just think you are entitled to everything.

nothing religious about credentials and hard work.

you choose who you go to have your surgery done. Someone who is a professional or someone pretending to be one.

would you be comfortable having a 24 year old perform surgery on you?

prob not. Is that because you are ‘ mean’ or whatever silly term you put next to it?
no

thats what experience and credentials are.
work hard and accomplish something great and see how awesome it feels

or you could take the easy route and diss people like Toole who worked hard for a doctorate and follow a wannabe l which is downright laughable.

work hard. Yeah it matters.

I don't have feelings about audio, only reason.

Surgery? Bloody hell. Your crusade is riduculous...

 

[Nkam]

The preference testing is flawed.

Again. show us how it’s flawed.
please show us the math in the methodology

 

[Nkam]

I can say the same thing about you to be honest.

I haven’t made a video on acoustics or how to do anything.
huge diff.

anyone can just say something.
im proving it by saying I’m not qualified to make a video.
and thus I don’t

 

[tuga]

ok so do what peers do.
do your own research and help the audio world and science.

yeah that’s how it’s done.
parroting someone else’s observations is easy. Anyone can do that.

do your own research.
prove Toole wrong. Discover new things in audio
i guarantee you Toole will be the first to thank you.

Toole has stated here that he did what he could with the resources he had available.
Try reading 'Sound Reproduction' a bit more critically.

 

[amirm]

The recommendation for RT60 values is between 200 and 400 ms for a reference mixing room.

Speaking of mixing rooms, formal study was done to see if there is preference for side wall absorption, diffusion or reflection when creating a mix in a controlled environment. Result was that it did not matter but when the testers were asked to express an opinion, most preferred a reflective side (painted drywall). From peer reviewed journal of AES paper, The Practical Effects of Lateral Energy in Critical Listening Environments

"2.1.1 Main Effects
The only statistically significant effect was Music F (2, 123) = 5.71, p = 0.0034. However, the main factor for this experiment, Treatment, was not found to be statistically significant F (2, 7.6) = 0.35, p = 0.7."

"2.3 Subjects’ Preference
After the experiment each subject was asked which acoustic treatment created the best listening condition for mixing. Eight (8) subjects decided it is Diffusion, seven (7) decided Absorption, and eleven (11) decided Reflection. We decided to test subjects’ level preference and variance performance based on that information (Fig. 11)."

So once again, we need to operate from the position that sidewalls are beneficial unless proven otherwise (in the case of listener). Instructing people to blindly absorb them is just wrong. What seems intuitive is just wrong here. Two ears and brain don't work in the way people imagine....

 

[tuga]

Again. show us how it’s flawed.
please show us the math in the methodology

You're new here. Use the search feature.

 

[amirm]

You're new here. Use the search feature.

It is your job to prove your point, not make him do it for you.

 

[Nkam]

Speaking of mixing rooms, formal study was done to see if there is preference for side wall absorption, diffusion or reflection when creating a mix in a controlled environment. Result was that it did not matter but when the testers were asked to express an opinion, most preferred a reflective side (painted drywall). From peer reviewed journal of AES paper, The Practical Effects of Lateral Energy in Critical Listening Environments

"2.1.1 Main Effects
The only statistically significant effect was Music F (2, 123) = 5.71, p = 0.0034. However, the main factor for this experiment, Treatment, was not found to be statistically significant F (2, 7.6) = 0.35, p = 0.7."

"2.3 Subjects’ Preference
After the experiment each subject was asked which acoustic treatment created the best listening condition for mixing. Eight (8) subjects decided it is Diffusion, seven (7) decided Absorption, and eleven (11) decided Reflection. We decided to test subjects’ level preference and variance performance based on that information (Fig. 11)."

View attachment 288953

So once again, we need to operate from the position that sidewalls are beneficial unless proven otherwise (in the case of listener). Instructing people to blindly absorb them is just wrong. What seems intuitive is just wrong here. Two ears and brain don't work in the way people imagine....

yup

again from evolution.
we adapted that to see where the heck something was coming from so we wouldn’t be eaten alive.

put us in a non reflective room and our brains actually get confused more.
well to certain degrees.

 

[Nkam]

You're new here. Use the search feature.

im new here?

lol

what does that have to do with anything ??

omg. How old Are you that you are still practicing tribalism in the form of kids in a sandbox and the new kid coming in to play?

sheesh. lol

 

[Axo1989]

Buy some furniture! Dedicated treatments are expensive, furniture these days they are practically giving away.

Haha, true, not furniture I'd like to keep in my house though.

Again, it is not his preference, it is that of majority of listeners when formally tested. To advocate otherwise means pretending that the preference of a few is what should be advocated.

The preferences of a cross-section of the population are interesting of course, as is that body of research. But obviously my preferences are of most interest to me. I've noticed people posting here with similar musical taste often express a similar preference for a (relatively) dry room, narrow directivity speakers etc, so I think there is something in that.Not to say my preferences are forever fixed, I'm also interested in new experiences.

Tooles method is based on evolution.
our brains need spatial cues to locate sound.
its called Evolutionary science.

he is not saying anything more or less

killing or treating all early reflections is counterintuitive to how our brains and ears evolved.

For the music I enjoy, I primarily want to hear the spatial cues encoded in the recording. I don't require much in the way of additional envelopment. I can make adjustments (open/close the side walls, adjust speaker toe-in) to increase/decrease side wall reflections (unusually, my room controls floor and ceiling reflections already) for different program material, which can also be interesting.

you REALLY think Dr Tooles room won’t sound good??

I expect Toole's room sounds very good playing the music he enjoys and set his system up for.