How NOT to set up speakers and room treatment ( Goldensound)

[dweeeeb2]

Getting the right speakers may be a problem

Thats exactly my point. None of the speakers presented to me at various hifi stores would have reproduced a violin or trumpet at actual volume without sounding like crap. Sure I could spend more money, and thats fine but in general most people are not aware of how loud instruments actually are and how hard it is for a speaker to do that

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Thats exactly my point. None of the speakers presented to me at various hifi stores would have reproduced a violin or trumpet at actual volume without sounding like crap. Sure I could spend more money, and thats fine but in general most people are not aware of how loud instruments actually are and how hard it is for a speaker to do that

You are not wrong.

 

[Pudik]

Thats exactly my point. None of the speakers presented to me at various hifi stores would have reproduced a violin or trumpet at actual volume without sounding like crap. Sure I could spend more money, and thats fine but in general most people are not aware of how loud instruments actually are and how hard it is for a speaker to do that

This is what i m talking about when coming to speakers. The real test of a speaker happens with the symphony orchestra, the Achilles' heal of any speake, however high end it may be. P.

 

[Thomas Lund]

To conclude a long and winding side-thread about envelopment: The quality is important to audio professionals beyond doubt, but recorded envelopment often does not make it to a recreational listener, due to, for instance...

- reproduction room, unstandardised speaker setup or listener placement,
- loudspeakers with too bumpy in-situ LF, and/or response not extended to at least 50 Hz,
- pods or soundbars incapable of inducing LF channel differences in the listening space,
- lossy datareduction distorting channel differences,
- electrical summation of low octaves (mono sub, incl. distributed subs)

Whether or not the experience of auditory envelopment to a human is just enjoyable, or it also may trigger a striatal response in listeners, is conjecture for the time being.

 

[IPunchCholla]

- loudspeakers with too bumpy in-situ LF, and/or response not extended to at least 50 Hz,
- pods or soundbars incapable of inducing LF channel differences in the listening space,

Thinking back over my experiences, LF (particularly LF that I can feel) seems to be the most common denominator. The other is dBSPL. The louder the more likely I am to feel enveloped particularly for higher frequencies.

The first time I really thought about the phenomena, I was on a flat desert plain, standing near some power transmission lines. A noise appeared at a distance and moved towards me. It sounded like an oscillating sustained version of a Star Wars blaster. It was very loud. As it approached it appeared wider and as it neared it enveloped me. While it moved along the track of the high tension power lines, it didn’t appear to come from them, but from all around me. I am assuming something very large hit the power lines to cause them to act as vibrating strings, but I don’t really know.

Another time I was in Nevada in a wide (50+ miles) valley between mountains. I could hear a fighter jet flying very fast and low, but couldn’t pinpoint it. The sound felt very similar to the wires, in that it seemed to have a very large source and directionality was hard to pinpoint (harder in this case as there were no wires to use as visual reference.

What these two events had in common was the presence of very low frequencies along with high frequencies at high SPL. As illogical as it sounds, they also sounded highly reverberant. Probably the two most enveloping situations I have found myself in, but, obviously, nothing to do with reproduction equipment.

 

[MattHooper]

Thats exactly my point. None of the speakers presented to me at various hifi stores would have reproduced a violin or trumpet at actual volume without sounding like crap. Sure I could spend more money, and thats fine but in general most people are not aware of how loud instruments actually are and how hard it is for a speaker to do that

I agree with you in how loud real instruments are.

I don’t need a speaker to reproduce those sound levels nor for my comfort and hearing health do I want it. No more than I want my home theater system to produce the total realism of the sound of tanks and explosions for war movies, which would make me deaf.

I want some of the nice parts of reality in there, enough to remind me of the real thing and sink in to an illusion.

So one of my main goals is a system that reproduces some of the complexity and beauty in the timbre of real instruments. Then I can enjoy that at whatever volume I choose.

 

[Purité Audio]

Your system can only reproduce the file, many believe that adding colouration makes the speakers sound more like real instruments, I am not one of them.
Keith

 

[MattHooper]

If someone cares that a system produce, to the extent possible, the sense of real instruments, in principle "just reproducing the file" should be best.
In other words, the recording captured the correct sound of the instrument and adding coloration can only depart from that, and sound more artificial.

But we all know the flaw in that reasoning: Most recordings don't accurately capture the sound of real instruments. All sorts of colorations tend to be introduced, from mic choices, to mic placement, multi-micing, coloration added in mixing/engineering/producing, all the way to colorations produced by loudspeakers, rooms etc. So typically recordings tend to suffer deficits in regard to how real instruments sound.

The inherent deficits in recording is a big reason people in my line of post production sound work spend so much time re-equing and manipulating recordings - adding coloration to the "recorded file" - to sound more natural and real.

On the same principle, some can find some level of manipulating the sound of playback to seem more natural and real. (Even in this thread we've talked about how some people find ADDING a certain level of room reflection makes the playback of recordings sound more natural).

Personally I tend not to be a fan of gross distortion and major departures from neutral. Too much of that makes me aware of a coloration, which tends to make me aware of the playback system itself. But I'm happy with little nudges of distortion here and there if they achieve to my ears a more natural sound. I want to be made less aware of the playback system, not more.

 

[Curvature]

To conclude a long and winding side-thread about envelopment: The quality is important to audio professionals beyond doubt, but recorded envelopment often does not make it to a recreational listener, due to, for instance...

- reproduction room, unstandardised speaker setup or listener placement,
- loudspeakers with too bumpy in-situ LF, and/or response not extended to at least 50 Hz,
- pods or soundbars incapable of inducing LF channel differences in the listening space,
- lossy datareduction distorting channel differences,
- electrical summation of low octaves (mono sub, incl. distributed subs)

Whether or not the experience of auditory envelopment to a human is just enjoyable, or it also may trigger a striatal response in listeners, is conjecture for the time being.

Don't you think that preference testing is not simply about enjoyment? It can't be just a hedonic matter. There's too much linking the results to basic psychoacoustic facts.

And seperately, LF envelopment requires a large space, like a hall, and a significant random component, something simulable in small rooms with multichannel (but not in .1 configs). And then MF/HF envelopment depends on cohenrent early reflections, something seen in both concert halls and small rooms.

 

[Thomas Lund]

What these two events had in common was the presence of very low frequencies along with high frequencies at high SPL. As illogical as it sounds, they also sounded highly reverberant. Probably the two most enveloping situations I have found myself in, but, obviously, nothing to do with reproduction equipment.

Thanks for sharing. Those would have been a good stimuli for fMRI recordings

Experience of envelopment outdoors is generally associated with movement. As an outdoor bonus, we localise even below 1 Hz. With enough sound power, the feeling can be overwhelming.

 

[Hayabusa]

In view of this thread and what is brought up about the positive aspects of reflections, I throw in a pair of omni speakers. In the video below, given the conditions with the music being played, and the furniture in the listening room (also no absorbents, no carpets on the floor), would you have chosen a pair of omni speakers then?
(disregard the rather mediocre amp used in the video)

Edit:
On the other hand, the Duevel Planets omni speakers with a different kind of music (orchestral music, some classical music,big band jazz) in a room with lots of furniture, carpets, bookcases and so on. Maybe?
(compared to non omnis in such a room with that kind of music that is)

I use them as surounds

 

[krabapple]

There simply wasn't enough money to be made by listening to them, that's the bigger issue.

Oh dear, you're one of those. You think climate scientists are in it for the money.

Which to anyone in science, is laughable. I'm laughing at you.

Between you and the angry 'academization' guy who rants like he was denied tenure, I see this forum approaching the dismal mean of other forums.

[EDIT : it appears I massively misunderstood Wesayso's comment; he isn't saying that. Sorry Wesayso!]

 

[Hayabusa]

Oh dear, you're one of those. You think climate scientists are in it for the money.

Which to anyone in science, is laughable. I'm laughing at you.

Between you and the angry 'academization' guy who rants like he was denied tenure, I see this forum approaching the dismal mean of other forums.

really? what are you saying?

 

[Multicore]

This is what i m talking about when coming to speakers. The real test of a speaker happens with the symphony orchestra, the Achilles' heal of any speake, however high end it may be. P.

While it may be an interesting technical project, inviting a symphony orchestra into your home is a creative aesthetic project too. Going to Symphony Hall is the the real thing and trying to reproduce that experience at home is artifice. Successfully optimizing the recording/playback chain to transparency doesn't eliminate the artifice because playback in your room doesn't sound the same as Symphony Hall. Successfully optimizing the sound-fields in your listening space to match some Symphony Hall so you can move and hear the same thing (if that can be done, idk) just begs questions: which Symphony Hall and which recording are you going to simulate at home. And don't touch the volume control because only one setting is realistic.

My point is that whatever we do with playing recordings at home is deliberate artifice for our pleasure. We are all subjectivists at the end of the day. There's nothing better than listening to Bruckner 9 on a Bluetooth speaker in the bathroom when that's what you need.

 

[krabapple]

Edit: on the teasing/sarcasm thing, I don't know where @wisechoice is from, but for Australians like me those things are a sign of camaraderie. We tend to be more formal/obsequious when we think someone's a d*ckhead. It doesn't always translate, obviously. US-ians sometimes seem to like lickspittle, f*ck knows why.

Oh dear. And here I, a US-ian, was wondering why Aussies -- male ones at least -- sometimes seem to revel in being jackasses.


(Actually, of all the folk I've encountered in my travels to six continents, Aussies are the ones who remind me most of US-ians. By far. I mean really, it's no contest, mate.)

 

[krabapple]

really? what are you saying?

About the 'dismal mean' thing? Just this from experience: audio forums are, on average, full of cranks and what my friends across the water call 'arseholes'.

The rest of it seems pretty clear to me.

 

[TK750]

Oh dear, you're one of those. You think climate scientists are in it for the money.

Which to anyone in science, is laughable. I'm laughing at you.

Between you and the angry 'academization' guy who rants like he was denied tenure, I see this forum approaching the dismal mean of other forums.

Errm I think you've massively misunderstood this comment? He's saying there wasn't enough money to be made by listening to climate scientists, not at all that they are in it for the money?

 

[krabapple]

Errm I think you've massively misunderstood this comment? He's saying there wasn't enough money to be made by listening to climate scientists, not at all that they are in it for the money?

Then yes, I massively misunderstood his comment.

I'll leave it there with a correction.

 

[Keith_W]

I had a listen to a system last night that reminded me of this thread. The room was 4m x 5m (13ft x 16ft), with two floorstanders and had extensive room treatment. I was told that before the treatment went in, the RT60 averaged around 700ms. After treatment, it is now about 250ms > 150Hz. Speakers were Sonus Faber Amati Tradition, $40k per pair.

Firstly, the soundstage was really narrow, confined between the two speakers which were not placed very far apart. I think that killing the first reflection point was responsible for this. However, the phantom image was really precise.

Although I was expecting to hear bass boominess, I did not hear it.

I pointed out to him that when he came to my house, I could play the music quite soft, and it would still be legible and we could hold a normal conversation without having to raise our voice. In his house, the volume has to be raised to the point where we have to yell at each other. Also, at that volume the speakers acquired a "shouty" character, I was not sure if it was the speaker or the amp that was distorting. I did not bring an SPL meter with me but I would guess that it was about 80dB at the listening position.

This was the first time I have listened to an over-treated room where I knew what the RT60 was. With other systems in over-treated rooms, those owners did not take measurements so I did not know. I think that 250ms is way too dry for me. It was good for having a conversation without music playing, but it wasn't great for music.

 

[Doodski]

What kind of phase disparity is involved in those delays across the hearing spectrum with a room of such dimensions? Maybe a proper acoustician would know? Can this be calculated manually with resolve or is this super computer stuff?