GR Research B24 AC Cable Review Follow up [Entertainment]

[Mathijs Kok]

• It may work for less well designed amp and noisy environment (if "cable interference" is true as the man said)

Look, I rewired my whole house. 640 meters of 230-volt wires. But only the very last meter matters? Only that can pick up 'noise'?

 

[KenA]

Look, I rewired my whole house. 640 meters of 230-volt wires. But only the very last meter matters? Only that can pick up 'noise'?

That’s because the last meter cable is a FILTER, don’t you see! It cleans the electrons at they go through.

 

[SimpleTheater]

For example, banks (via mortgages) are the primary reason why people have home insurance because the banks require it. Imagine that if a single bad power cable was let in and the house burned down that the bank would lose their collateral - that's not going to happen.

Not to off-track the thread, but this is not true. Insurance companies are always looking for reasons not to pay. The bank will take the loss and sell the property. The homeowner will have terrible credit.

Just how many fires are started on purpose to collect insurance money? Many, and they don’t care about your bank.

 

[fpitas]

Just how many fires are started on purpose to collect insurance money? Many

We may have an explanation why some audiophiles like garbage power cords

 

[Robbo99999]

@amirm, "looks like I couldn't spell my own name", that was such a funny inclusion, glad you kept that in, just very funny in mock self-deprecation vs the wildly more likely same implication to the person who is the subject of your video! Good video, as you say, entertainment, we know about cable nonsense!

 

[moosso]

Look, I rewired my whole house. 640 meters of 230-volt wires. But only the very last meter matters? Only that can pick up 'noise'?

Anybody explain why this happen?
Check 60Hz, 190Hz and 300Hz.

Amir test it on a SINAD 120dB setup, of course it's impossible to make audible difference.
I just wondering how it would perform in a more problematic setup.
And what cheap cable can make AC noise less like this? (whether audible or not)

 

[Philosoraptor]

I just finished watching Amir's video. The whole thing. Typically my attention span is about 3 to 5 minutes on videos. This reeled me in. Kudos Amir.

 

[moosso]

I just want to know about more science behind this.
This is Amir's setup:

Can we also test these setup to prove the "EMI between cables matter" and "Balanced cable can't cancel all noise since they are dynamic" (from the man's video) are false?

 

[Killingbeans]

Anybody explain why this happen?

He's testing the two power chords as interconnects for fun. The B24 seems to have a geometry that dampens low frequency EMI a bit.

Completely pointless when the chords are used as intended.

I just wondering how it would perform in a more problematic setup.

It would have to be extremely problematic. Even the most simple textbook PSU deals with these things in ways that make shielded/filtered power chords completely unnecessarily.

And what cheap cable can make AC noise less like this? (whether audible or no)

One that's shielded with a highly permeable material. But again, you don't use your power cables as interconnects, and you don't wrap them around huge transformers, so what's the point?

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I wonder if it's safe hooking that tiny wire to a 15amp circuit. I guess audiophiles will buy any d*mn thing.

It's just a long slow blow fuse..

 

[tmtomh]

Great video, watched it all the way through. With regard to Danny at GR, the key problem is something I believe @amirm mentions in the video at one point, and which I've seen Danny repeat over and over in responses to critical comments (including mine ) on his original YT video: He simply asserts that an objectively audible difference exists between his power cord and a generic one, and so all of his claims about how the cord works and is constructed become simply explanations for why and how it does what it does, instead of evidence that it does anything to begin with. When challenged on this, he simply asserts that it is a fact that it makes an audible difference - he literally writes things like, "if it didn't work, then it wouldn't make an audible difference, which it clearly does."

This is not particularly surprising in the audiophile world, as it's a very common mode of argument. But it's a total conversation-stopper because it's a fundamental category mistake. He claims a subjective listening impression is an objective fact. He does not know, or does not care, what the meaning of "fact" is, and so the entire discourse is Alice in Wonderland Mad Hatter stuff.

 

[Endibol]

Countless people asked him in the comments of his video. His answer was the same and what I quoted in my video: "I have done hundreds of blind tests. It is easy!"

When I try to communicate with him privately, he is very insulting and rude. He tells me my reviews are a joke, etc.

I think what we ultimately dealing with is a salesman thinking he has a ton of power online. This is why he appeals to them in video rather than contacting me in response to my review as proper manufacturers do.

When I try to communicate with him privately, he is very insulting and rude. He tells me my reviews are a joke, etc.

Now I understand better why you couldn’t resist becoming somewhat personal..

 

[Chrispy]

you must have read my post a little too quickly and the description of the cables for which I gave the link because its last ones are not starquad...(certainly they have the internal configuration but only one of the 2 internal mini cables has copper strands for special applications). but in any case they are very flexible as I wished and as announced and it is not so common.

Yes, and my american brain was thinking feet, not meters, too!

 

[Doodski]

I'm giving my reason why I tried to defend this poor guy.

• The cable actually have very low resistance and it did reduce power noise by 20dB even for topping, the measurement result is good
• Amir is testing it with a state of art amp with near perfect settings
• The guy did good mods for speaker, maybe he want to make some fast money but doing this could destory his business (hundred comments criticize him under youtube)
• If you can pay $1400 for "good dac" why can't some people pay $350 for "good cable"?
• People here haven't seen the real audiophile grade cable, check here and here if you want to open your eyes, $350 is not that unreasonable to people have money and want to buy everything best

Anyway I think it's absolutely not audible for good setups, I won't buy this cable.
But we can do more test, or ask the man provide the tests he run, in a more friendly manner.

Comparing one snake oil salesperson to a worse snake oil salesperson and denigrating the snake oil'ishy'ness of both snake oil sales people is just bad common sense.

 

[Doodski]

We may have an explanation why some audiophiles like garbage power cords

I had a close working relationship with Dominion Warranty and the owner advised me that ~40% is considered insurance fraud but cannot be proven.

 

[fpitas]

I had a close working relationship with Dominion Warranty and the owner advised me that ~40% is considered insurance fraud but cannot be proven.

High-end power cord fires are the ultimate in prestige.

 

[tmtomh]

I'm giving my reason why I tried to defend this poor guy.

• The cable actually have very low resistance and it did reduce power noise by 20dB even for topping, the measurement result is good
• Amir is testing it with a state of art amp with near perfect settings
• The guy did good mods for speaker, maybe he want to make some fast money but doing this could destory his business (hundred comments criticize him under youtube)
• If you can pay $1400 for "good dac" why can't some people pay $350 for "good cable"?
• People here haven't seen the real audiophile grade cable, check here and here if you want to open your eyes, $350 is not that unreasonable to people have money and want to buy everything best

Anyway I think it's absolutely not audible for good setups, I won't buy this cable.
But we can do more test, or ask the man provide the tests he run, in a more friendly manner.

I appreciate you laying out your your specific reasons for defending him. In response to your reasons, I would make the following comments:

Yes, the cable has low resistance and did show less AC noise - but there are four important follow-up points to this:

1. Amir already explicitly notes this in his review and video on the power cord.
2. We only know that the cord has these qualities because @amirm measured it! Danny refuses to share measurements of it, claims it's not possible to measure what it does, and strongly implies that he has never even measured it himself.
3. The cord did not "reduce" AC noise - Amir repeatedly emphasizes that a power cord with no other components inside simply does not, cannot, filter AC. What Amir found was that when he created an artificial situation, taking a large power transformer and putting it right next to each AC cord at just the right angle or orientation to make the cord pick up EMI from the transformer, the GR AC AC cord picked up less noise than the generic one. But in a normal condition, the GR cord will simply pass the AC signal, with all its noise and junk, through to the audio component, just like the generic one will. The GR cord only makes a difference with airborne interference external to the AC feed.
4. As Amir notes, the low resistance and lower AC noise are irrelevant - they have no impact on audio reproduction because we're talking about a power cord, not an interconnect - and because the measurements of audio equipment output are totally unchanged with this cord vs a generic AC cord.

As for the quality of Amir's amp and setup, the entire argument Danny and others who take a similar approach make is that if you can't hear a difference with their AC cord, it's because your system isn't good enough - so using a state of the art amp should reveal the AC cord's benefits to the max. Therefore using a state of the art amp provides the best case scenario for Danny's AC cord.

"The guy did good mods for speakers" - do we know that?

You are absolutely right that people routinely pay more than they need to for a given level of performance. But here at ASR, if someone pays $1400 for a good DAC that performs the same as a $200 DAC, then that's the fact that we acknowledge: both DACs perform the same, but one is a lot more expensive. Whether you think that's a waste of money or a valid purchase because of looks, build quality, where it's made, or something else, we can all agree that they perform the same. But that's not the issue here. Danny's not saying his $350 AC cord performs the same as generic cords but is built to be much sturdier. He's saying it audibly improves the sound coming out of your system, "lifting veils," improving the soundstage, and so on. An AC cord can't do that. So people can buy whatever they want, including his cable - but that's not what we're talking about here.

Amir just reviewed an NAD amplifier that costs $3700 and gave it his highest rating. You can get audibly indistinguishable performance, and the same power levels, for about 1/3 that price, but he still gave it his highest rating. Conversely, Amir has reviewed inexpensive gear and given it his lowest rating because it performs poorly. So it's not about cost. It's about what the gear does. If you want to spend extra money because of how an item looks or feels, or its fit and finish, or the quality of its display and remote control, go for it. But if you are spending extra money because you think the item improves the sound of your system, and the measurements show it doesn't (and can't), then here at ASR, folks are going to point out that fact.

 

[tmtomh]

High-end power cord fires are the ultimate in prestige.

And I would assume such fires burn a pure blue instead of the usual dirty yellow, orange, and red.

 

[CtheArgie]

I appreciate you laying your your specific reasons for defending him. In response to your reasons, I would make the following comments:

Yes, the cable has low resistance and did show less AC noise - but there are four important follow-up points to this:

1. Amir already explicitly notes this in his review and video on the power cord
2. We only know that the cord has these qualities because @amirm measured it! Danny refuses to share measurements of it, claims it's not possible to measure what it does, and strongly implies that he has never even measured it himself
3. The cord did not "reduce" AC noise - Amir repeatedly emphasizes that a power cord with no other components inside simply does not, cannot, filter AC. What Amir found was that when he created an artificial situation, taking a large power transformer and putting it right next to each AC cord at just the right angle or orientation to make the cord pick up EMI from the transformer, the GR AC AC cord picked up less noise than the generic one. But in a normal condition, the GR cord will simply pass the AC signal, with all its noise and junk, through to the audio component, just like the generic one will. The GR cord only makes a difference with airborne interference external to the AC feed.
4. As Amir notes, the low resistance and lower AC noice are irrelevant - they have no impact on audio reproduction because we're talking about a power cord, not an interconnect - and because the measurements of audio equipment output are totally unchanged with this cord vs a generic AC cord.

As for the quality of Amir's amp and setup, the entire argument Danny and others who take a similar approach make is that if you can't hear a difference with their AC cord, it's because your system isn't good enough - so using a state of the art amp should reveal the AC cord's benefits to the max. Therefore using a state of the art amp provides the best case scenario for Danny's AC cord.

"The guy did good mods for speakers" - do we know that?

You are absolutely right that people routinely pay more than they need to for a given level of performance. But here at ASR, if someone pays $1400 for a good DAC that performs the same as a $200 DAC, then that's the fact that we acknowledge: both DACs perform the same, but one is a lot more expensive. Whether you think that's a waste of money or a valid purchase because of looks, built quality, where it's made, or something else, we can all agree that they perform the same. But that's not the issue here. Danny's not saying his $350 AC cord performs the same as generic cords but is built to be much sturdier. He's saying it audibly improves the sound coming out of your system, "lifting veils," improving the soundstage, and so on. An AC cord can't do that. So people can buy whatever they want, including his cable - but that's not what we're talking about here.

Amir just reviewed an NAD amplifier that costs $3700 and gave it his highest rating. You can get audibly indistinguishable performance, and the same power levels, for about 1/3 that price, but he still gave it his highest rating. Conversely, Amir has reviewed inexpensive gear and given it his lowest rating because it performs poorly. So it's not about cost. It's about what the gear does. If you want to spend extra money because of how an item looks or feels, or its fit and finish, or the quality of its display and remote control, go for it. But if you are spending extra money because you think the item improves the sound of your system, and the measurements show it doesn't (and can't), then here at ASR, folks are going to point out that fact.

What an excellent response! Well done.

 

[CtheArgie]

I had a close working relationship with Dominion Warranty and the owner advised me that ~40% is considered insurance fraud but cannot be proven.

Oh, after the Woolsey fire near our home, it was obvious that a lot of homes had "damage" that was not really true. A lot of "remodeling by insurance claim". We were disgusted but there was nothing we could do about it.