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Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H

Oski1997

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Hi, I recently picked up a refurbished denon x4700h that has the new hdmi board and a “7” in the fifth digit from the right. I did request an old one but this is what came. My question is, do we know definatively know what dacs are being put into denon for a replacement of the AKM DAC of old? I’m wondering if it’s throwing a fuss over, but I’d swear there is a different sound signature than I expected coming from denon and demoing an older x4700h. It has power and good frequency response but lacks expression and dynamics, also the bass is digital sounding, not authoritative.
Many people (from around the world) have commented that the AKM4458 DAC is no longer being used by Denon as of May 2021 (because of the chip shortage). This is why you’re hearing a different sound. If you don’t need HDMI 2.1, I suggest buying a pre-May 2021 Denon.
 

Jkaiser3

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What are the replacement dacs being used in a denon x4700 ( and x6700h) with serial number greater than 70000. The v2 units with updated hdmi boards. Got a new x4700h and would like to see if I can find out what DAC is being used, inside my return window. Denon responded to my inquiry saying: “this is information that the engineers (sound United) have elected not to share with us (denon). Seems insane, the company building a receiver doesn’t have the information on the parts they use in the receivers they selling. Why the secrecy, the quality of their parts have historically been a selling point.
 

Jkaiser3

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So have we seen any comparisons between the new and old DACs? I've just ordered the new post may X4700H and feel a bit worried
Did you find anything out? I have also bought a x4700h v2 and while I think it’s safe to say it received a bit more love than the new 3700h’s pcm 5102a’s. It seems to still only use two new dacs that are 32 bits do you photos of the new DAC ic chips from denon Japan.
 

Jkaiser3

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Many people (from around the world) have commented that the AKM4458 DAC is no longer being used by Denon as of May 2021 (because of the chip shortage). This is why you’re hearing a different sound. If you don’t need HDMI 2.1, I suggest buying a pre-May 2021 Denon.
You’d be of a lot more assistance if you could provide information that hasn’t been readily circulated around the world for months. Like what the change has been to.
 

peng

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You’d be of a lot more assistance if you could provide information that hasn’t been readily circulated around the world for months. Like what the change has been to.

To be fair, he really doesn't know. He apparently ordered a Marantz after he was told by a Marantz rep (he said he called them) that "..Because of the low supply, Sound United is only putting the superior AKM 4458 into their ”premium“ brand Marantz."


I have since told him that based on info from Marantz website (and that's in writing so I trust that should be more reliable than what the rep said to him on the call). Regarding which IC is being used on the new units, the only responses in writing from both Denon and Marantz customer support as posted by other ASR members so far has been that they would not share the information.

I have tried multiple times to make the point that we really don't know the facts and are just going in circle reporting hearsay and rumor about which unit gets which ICs.

The only facts based on my own observation on this topic are that there have been photos published on Denon.jp websites (possible other websites too but I don't remember which one now) for the original DAC board and the new one.

For details, refer to my post#89, click one of the link to see the photos:

I have the photo of the original board only because it copied and pasted it on Excel way back, and that's why the resolution is quite poor. If you enhance and magnify it you can still see that the pinouts look very similar between the two. So if we can trust the Denon.jp website photos, it shows the IC they are using now has very similar pin configuration. Then I Googled for multiple DAC datasheets, and all I could find was that aside from the AKM ICs, only the ESS Sabre DAC ICs have the similar pin numbers (both have 48 pins) and layout So you can draw your own conclusion based on those two DAC board photos if you wish. Other than that, I really don't know how to solve this puzzle without someone doing a tear down of a new unit.

I am getting tired of suggesting that we don't assume the PCM5102A is the replacement chip based on hearsay and rumors, and in doing so, someone might get misled inadvertently and end up making decisions based on inaccurate information. I though I would post on what I know so far, only because I can see that you are taking this DAC chip thing very seriously.

Actually I just remember there may be one more "fact" to point to, that is Geoflux reported there were 7 PCM5102A onboard of his AVR-X3700H. That would be a fact if he did do a tear down and saw those 7 chips.


That would really puzzle me though because the cost of implementing 7 PCM5102A for the main zone channels would unlikely cost less overall, then implementing just 2 8 channel chips such as the ES9006. Denon and Marantz have been using the same IC, the AK4458 since 2016(or may be 2017) for their whole AVR line up, from the lowest model to the AVR-X6700H and Marantz SR8015 obviously for standardization reason as that typically means better cost efficiency. So why start using a different board for the 3700, and likely the SR5015 too logically speaking?
 

beren777

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How far would I need to tear into my 3700H to find the DAC chips? Does anyone have a schematic or guide concerning their location?

mystery.gif
 

peng

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How far would I need to tear into my 3700H to find the DAC chips? Does anyone have a schematic or guide concerning their location?

mystery.gif

Based on what I saw in the AV8805A teardown video I suspect it would be a very difficult job as there are many parts to remove before you can get to the DAC board. You can fast forward to the 25 min. point.

Apparently Geoflux has seen the 7 PCM5102A so may be you can PM him.

 

alik1006

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Some silver lining.
We can use this opportunity to see whom we can trust. There are like hundreds of "reviews" of Denon and Marantz on the internet and very few actually updated their reviews with at least an asterisk comment that D&M changed DAC and refuse to disclose the new one. Which means that they are either paid reviews (quelle surprise) or don't understand the importance of DAC or just lazy... whichever it is the result is the same - next time you look for a review stick to those who are mode honest and diligent.

PS ASR and AVF are good :)
 
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Jkaiser3

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To be fair, he really doesn't know. He apparently ordered a Marantz after he was told by a Marantz rep (he said he called them) that "..Because of the low supply, Sound United is only putting the superior AKM 4458 into their ”premium“ brand Marantz."


I have since told him that based on info from Marantz website (and that's in writing so I trust that should be more reliable than what the rep said to him on the call). Regarding which IC is being used on the new units, the only responses in writing from both Denon and Marantz customer support as posted by other ASR members so far has been that they would not share the information.

I have tried multiple times to make the point that we really don't know the facts and are just going in circle reporting hearsay and rumor about which unit gets which ICs.

The only facts based on my own observation on this topic are that there have been photos published on Denon.jp websites (possible other websites too but I don't remember which one now) for the original DAC board and the new one.

For details, refer to my post#89, click one of the link to see the photos:

I have the photo of the original board only because it copied and pasted it on Excel way back, and that's why the resolution is quite poor. If you enhance and magnify it you can still see that the pinouts look very similar between the two. So if we can trust the Denon.jp website photos, it shows the IC they are using now has very similar pin configuration. Then I Googled for multiple DAC datasheets, and all I could find was that aside from the AKM ICs, only the ESS Sabre DAC ICs have the similar pin numbers (both have 48 pins) and layout So you can draw your own conclusion based on those two DAC board photos if you wish. Other than that, I really don't know how to solve this puzzle without someone doing a tear down of a new unit.

I am getting tired of suggesting that we don't assume the PCM5102A is the replacement chip based on hearsay and rumors, and in doing so, someone might get misled inadvertently and end up making decisions based on inaccurate information. I though I would post on what I know so far, only because I can see that you are taking this DAC chip thing very seriously.

Actually I just remember there may be one more "fact" to point to, that is Geoflux reported there were 7 PCM5102A onboard of his AVR-X3700H. That would be a fact if he did do a tear down and saw those 7 chips.


That would really puzzle me though because the cost of implementing 7 PCM5102A for the main zone channels would unlikely cost less overall, then implementing just 2 8 channel chips such as the ES9006. Denon and Marantz have been using the same IC, the AK4458 since 2016(or may be 2017) for their whole AVR line up, from the lowest model to the AVR-X6700H and Marantz SR8015 obviously for standardization reason as that typically means better cost efficiency. So why start using a different board for the 3700, and likely the SR5015 too logically speaking?
My only reasoning there is denon Japan doesn’t stock carry or mfr the denon x3700h and thereby a solution may be necessary for that model specifically that wasn’t implemented on the others. (Side note they don’t mfr the x4700 either but do the x6700, so perhaps since the two both use al32 and have discrete dacs they share the same newly upgraded dacs that differ on say the 2700, 3700) Denon Japan has addressed DAC ic changes in their press releases that show pics of 2 32 bit dacs, those statements mention only the x4700 and x6700.
 

Oski1997

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What are the replacement dacs being used in a denon x4700 ( and x6700h) with serial number greater than 70000. The v2 units with updated hdmi boards. Got a new x4700h and would like to see if I can find out what DAC is being used, inside my return window. Denon responded to my inquiry saying: “this is information that the engineers (sound United) have elected not to share with us (denon). Seems insane, the company building a receiver doesn’t have the information on the parts they use in the receivers they selling. Why the secrecy, the quality of their parts have historically been a selling point.
From what I’ve read on-line, they’re most likely using the PCM1502. That’s why the post-May units don’t sound the same as the pre-May units. I returned the Denon I bought 2 weeks ago (serial# above 77,000) with a Marantz I bought this week (serial number above 76,000). The Marantz sounds much more refined.

If I buy a Denon and a Marantz from Best Buy online, can I have them shipped directly to Amir? That way he can just return them to his local Best Buy when he’s done tearing them down? The refund is automatically credited to my credit card with just the receipt. I don’t need to one present.

You could buy a refurbished x4700 (pre-May model) from an authorized seller just to compare the sound of your post-May x4700h then return it within 30 days. That might give you peace of mind. I compared the Denon and the Marantz I bought (both post-May units) at the same time and easily heard the better sound from the Marantz so I returned the Denon. I even had a friend come over (he doesn’t know a thing about receivers). I didn’t know anything about receivers until 2 weeks ago. I just asked him which one he thought sounded better. I didn’t mention the brands. He chose the same one I did (the Marantz). It’s not a scientific test at all (lol). Just 2 friends hearing the same parts of Jamanji on blu-ray 4K with IMAX Enhanced. I do believe the pre-May units would’ve sounded equally good.
 
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peng

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My only reasoning there is denon Japan doesn’t stock carry or mfr the denon x3700h and thereby a solution may be necessary for that model specifically that wasn’t implemented on the others. (Side note they don’t mfr the x4700 either but do the x6700, so perhaps since the two both use al32 and have discrete dacs they share the same newly upgraded dacs that differ on say the 2700, 3700) Denon Japan has addressed DAC ic changes in their press releases that show pics of 2 32 bit dacs, those statements mention only the x4700 and x6700.

Surely the 3700 may in fact have the PCM5102A for the main zone as Geoflex said he had seen them. My point is simply why would they deviate from standardizing on the same AK4458 that they have been since 2017? How much can they save going from 2 eight channel chips to 7 two channel chips, plus the added inventory cost having to carry a different board now for the 3700 vs the same one for the 3700 and 4700? It just puzzles me a little, that's all. Hopefully the 4700 and 6700 do get a better one than than the 3700's.
 

alik1006

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If I could somehow trust them to still put AK4490 in X8500HA I would very likely to pay extra and get it. Alas... :rolleyes:
 

Oski1997

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Surely the 3700 may in fact have the PCM5102A for the main zone as Geoflex said he had seen them. My point is simply why would they deviate from standardizing on the same AK4458 that they have been since 2017? How much can they save going from 2 eight channel chips to 7 two channel chips, plus the added inventory cost having to carry a different board now for the 3700 vs the same one for the 3700 and 4700? It just puzzles me a little, that's all. Hopefully the 4700 and 6700 do get a better one than than the 3700's.
They don’t have enough AKM 4458 chips to go around because of the AKM fire in Japan last October. The Marantz rep I spoke to said Sound United is putting the AKM chips they have into the Marantz units and the PCM chips into the Denon units because of the low inventory (but this has yet to be confirmed by an actual tear down). In my opinion, they probably don’t have enough AKM chips to keep putting them into the Marantz units either. So the Marantz units may eventually get PCM chips too.
 

Oski1997

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If I could somehow trust them to still put AK4490 in X8500HA I would very likely to pay extra and get it. Alas... :rolleyes:
from what I read online, as of May 2021, the x8500HA now has the ES9010. But this has yet to be confirmed by an actual tear down. But you can have an x8500H with the AK4490 if you buy a refurbished unit (or open box). Just confirm the serial# is below 70,000. The 2020 models will prob the the best Denons available for 2-3 years.
 
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alik1006

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from what I read online, as of May 2021, the x8500HA now has the ES9010. But you can have an x8500HA with the AK4490 if you buy a refurbished unit (or open box). Just confirm the serial# is below 70,000. The 2020 models will prob the the best Denons available for 2-3 years.

Actually as far as I understand it would be enough to get X8500H as this is the only one where they added "A" after HDMI fix. Anyway, I don't really like this option.
 

Oski1997

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Actually as far as I understand it would be enough to get X8500H as this is the only one where they added "A" after HDMI fix. Anyway, I don't really like this option.
I agree, until an actual tear down is done, who knows what’s really inside these units. My solution was to buy a Denon and a Marantz, test them both in my home with the same settings and movie (I even had a friend come over and give me his opinion on the sound without telling him which model was which). He chose the unit I liked and I kept that unit. I don’t know if what I have is better or worse than the pre-May units (with below 70,000 serial numbers). I’m 2 weeks new to the AVR scene but it was the best I could do for now to ensure I liked the options I have available to me right now.
 

jrocks29

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From what I’ve read on-line, they’re most likely using the PCM1502. That’s why the post-May units don’t sound the same as the pre-May units. I returned the Denon I bought 2 weeks ago (serial# above 77,000) with a Marantz I bought this week (serial number above 76,000). The Marantz sounds much more refined.

If I buy a Denon and a Marantz from Best Buy online, can I have them shipped directly to Amir? That way he can just return them to his local Best Buy when he’s done tearing them down? The refund is automatically credited to my credit card with just the receipt. I don’t need to one present.

You could buy a refurbished x4700 (pre-May model) from an authorized seller just to compare the sound of your post-May x4700h then return it within 30 days. That might give you peace of mind. I compared the Denon and the Marantz I bought (both post-May units) at the same time and easily heard the better sound from the Marantz so I returned the Denon. I even had a friend come over (he doesn’t know a thing about receivers). I didn’t know anything about receivers until 2 weeks ago. I just asked him which one he thought sounded better. I didn’t mention the brands. He chose the same one I did (the Marantz). It’s not a scientific test at all (lol). Just 2 friends hearing the same parts of Jamanji on blu-ray 4K with IMAX Enhanced. I do believe the pre-May units would’ve sounded equally good.
Be careful, buying a refurb from before may is exactly what i did. I inquired about the serial numbers, was blatenly lied to and shipped a model with a replacement DAC. That is why im so up in arms about this. I did all the research i could and was careful and still got screwed buy this mess. Im looking for more information before deciding if pursuing and older built unit is worthwhile.
 

jrocks29

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Be careful, buying a refurb from before may is exactly what i did. I inquired about the serial numbers, was blatenly lied to and shipped a model with a replacement DAC. That is why im so up in arms about this. I did all the research i could and was careful and still got screwed buy this mess. Im looking for more information before deciding if pursuing and older built unit is worthwhile.
btw while it may very well be the dacs at play, there is such a distinct difference in the sound from denon to marantz, that it may be you just prefer that more music what id call warmer and rolled off highs, to a denon.
 

jrocks29

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Without the help of a good service manual, even if the board is exposed, the DAC ICs (should be 2 of them) could be on the side that is not visible to you. In that case the picture of the board might at least help you identify it, and go from there.

New or old, the boards look the same (that's assuming the X4500H has the same one as the original X4700H, both are based on the AK4458). You cannot see the DAC's ID in the pictures but you can clearly see the layouts are quite different.

Both pictures below are from Denon.jp:
AVR-X4700H | 9.2chプレミアムAVサラウンドレシーバー | Denon公式
AVR-X4500H | Denon公式

View attachment 128491


View attachment 128492
Just noticed these are two different pictures not a different angle of the same board. I did not see a second photo on Denon Jaopan's website. I'm curious where did this second photo come from, and what is it being toted as?
 

Oski1997

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Be careful, buying a refurb from before may is exactly what i did. I inquired about the serial numbers, was blatenly lied to and shipped a model with a replacement DAC. That is why im so up in arms about this. I did all the research i could and was careful and still got screwed buy this mess. Im looking for more information before deciding if pursuing and older built unit is worthwhile.
I bought a new unit. But, you can buy a refurbished unit from an AUTHORIZED retailer. https://www.denon.com/en-us/find-a-retailer
Warranty is only 1 year for a refurbished unit and Service Centers will only do warranty work from retailers listed on Denon/Marantz authorized retailer list. I wanted a 3-year warranty (especially with al of these concerns) so I bought a new unit.
 
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