Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

[SCG]

Audioholics is a far more reliable group than the "Alcoholics" from your original post. LOL!

I should have been more clear in my response to you that I was correcting your typo...

Totally missed my typo and your calling it out, now we know who the real Alcoholic is

Time now to listen to my favorite AC/DC song with my morning drink

 

[Sancus]

You can safely ignore anyone who cites REL on subs, they're clowns.

 

[techsamurai]

No, if you set it to LEF, the front doesn't default to anything. When you run Audyssey it will try to determine the roll off point of the speakers and set crossover accordingly. So, if may set any of your speakers it to large, or small and also set their crossover frequencies accordingly.

For example, it may set your mains to small, and crossover frequency of 60 Hz, that would mean the main will play from 60 Hz and up and attenuate its response from below 60 Hz. The subwoofer will pick up the frequencies below 60 Hz that would otherwise be sent to the mains. If you change the setting from LFE+Main, then in addition to the signal in the LFE channel of the content (such as Atmos, Dolby Digital etc.,..) the subwoofer will also play the bass signals send to the other speakers. It is not very useful for movies as you should just use LFE for better bass, but it can be useful for 2.0 stereo contents, because you can then take advantage of the better bass response of the subwoofers.


Lots of people suggested 80 Hz is a good crossover setting for the speakers regardless of how big the speakers are, I found that to work well for me over the years. 60 Hz isn't too bad, 40 Hz never works well, even if your speakers -3 dB point is down to 20 Hz.

Okay, I got a firmware update and they changed the UI so Denon is as confused as I am.

Instead of Small + Large, they replaced that choice with a Crossover allowing Full Range or Xover frequency (40,60 etc).

If you pick Full Range, the default for the sub is LFE which is technically really LFE + redirected bass.

However, you can still pick LFE+mains which I guess is double bass with cancellation and to be avoided since the fronts will be full range.

Now I chose 40hz for the crossover (I'd prefer 50hz but it's not an option). I guess LFE then plays the bass for the 2 speakers under 40hz which is redirected bass.

It's really not clear what LFE+Mains does there and why it's even an option. Does it send all frequencies under 120hz (assuming that's the LFE cutoff) to the sub and double 40-120hz or does it really not do anything more than just LFE?

 

[amadeuswus]

Apple TV 4K has 4 audio formats available:

• Auto (uncompressed PCM Multichannel up to 7.1) or Dolby Atmos (in Dolby MAT format, when available)
• Auto (uncompressed PCM Multichannel up to 7.1)
• Dolby Digital 5.1
• Stereo (PCM 2.0)

If the Apple TV 4K is connected directly to an Oppo BDP-105 (which can do up to 7.1 but I believe not Atmos), would I set the Apple TV for the second of the four audio formats to get uncompressed PCM Multichannel? I am a little unclear on the difference between formats 1 and 2 in that use case. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[techsamurai]

Audyssey XT32 results (3 positions - 2 seats with MLP in between)

Ready?

Front Large
Center Large
Surrounds 40hz

LFE+Main

Dynamic EQ On

So aggressive but not very far off from Audyssey MultiEq! Obviously my center is not full range - ideal crossover is 70-80hz. Surrounds are 70-80hz too.

I'll try it with tripod on Monday - I used my soft absorbing outdoor cushions to support it.

 

[techsamurai]

What SVS said makes sense....if you don't have the Denon setting at "LFE+Mains" (I believe this is widely called "Double Bass"). The potential to muddy the system is very high with this setting. Ever head of the saying, "too many cooks in the kitchen"? I have personally never subscribed to a double bass setting as I've never owned a set of full range mains (closest thing were my DefTech BP7002s).

Did you listen to the 120hz crossover w/o "LFE+Mains"?

Think about it from a logistical standpoint for a moment. The sub has to play the LFE and during a busy scene, that's going to keep it pretty busy.

All AVRs will use a crossover to send redirected bass from speakers to the sub - depending on the number of channels you may have 5-13 channels sending it information.

Do you really want it handling frequencies all the way to 120hz even assuming it could do it the same way that the speaker can (which it cannot)?

Just like speakers, the less work you give it, the better it will sound. Lowering the range would reduce its workload and focus it on its primary objective which is the lowest frequencies which take too much power on the amp and stress the speakers.

 

[EWL5]

Think about it from a logistical standpoint for a moment. The sub has to play the LFE and during a busy scene, that's going to keep it pretty busy.

All AVRs will use a crossover to send redirected bass from speakers to the sub - depending on the number of channels you may have 5-13 channels sending it information.

Do you really want it handling frequencies all the way to 120hz even assuming it could do it the same way that the speaker can (which it cannot)?

Just like speakers, the less work you give it, the better it will sound. Lowering the range would reduce its workload and focus it on its primary objective which is the lowest frequencies which take too much power on the amp and stress the speakers.

I don't know if you've ever been told this but low frequencies below 80hz are fairly non-directional. The job of the subwoofer is to deal w/the frequencies that you can feel and handoff the ones you can hear. If you have a halfway decent sub (which your SVS may be), then the wattage on that amp is either comparable to the 4800 or possibly even more!

For your reference, I have a DefTech Supercube 1 w/a 1500W amplifier!

 

[EWL5]

As I mentioned, I measured this some time ago with REW and I found in my system LFE+Mains was no bueno. I haven't setup the X4800 and therefore not installed the new fw, and it's the lil lady's b-day so we're heading out for a 4-day weekend celebration, so you're ahead of me in this area and will be for at least a week.

You might be aware of this, I found the owner's thread at AVS is filled with lots of users who try every configuration and post their experiences, and can do a deep dive into the settings configuration.

Between here, there, and Audioholics (got it right this time) all will be revealed so you might want to post there also if you haven't already.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/official-2022-23-denon-x-series-avr-owners-thread-x2800h-x3800h-x4800h.3252409/

Btw, what SVS sub/subs are your using?

I'm one of those AVS Forum guys w/nearly 20 years as a member.

 

[techsamurai]

Audyssey XT32 results (3 positions - 2 seats with MLP in between)

Ready?

Front Large
Center Large
Surrounds 40hz

LFE+Main

Dynamic EQ On

So aggressive but not very far off from Audyssey MultiEq! Obviously my center is not full range - ideal crossover is 70-80hz. Surrounds are 70-80hz too.

I'll try it with tripod on Monday - I used my soft absorbing outdoor cushions to support it.

I got the Tripod so now we have

Audyssey XT32 results (6 positions with tripod)

Front Large
Center 40hz
Surrounds 40hz

LFE+Main

Dynamic EQ On

As we can see the tripod and 3 extra measuredments changed the Center from Full Range to 40hz.

I also noticed that LFE+Mains in 2 channel playback have a setting of LPF Bass Extraction which is set to 40hz and those frequencies are copied to the sub. Since my speakers attenuate before 38hz, then this may actually work...

 

[techsamurai]

During Audyssey calibration, I noticed that it played the subwoofer before the tones and if I set it too loud, it made me lower the volume to 75db.

However, during all calibrations the sub played at a volume that was massively lower than all the speakers. I could hear it but it was very attenuated.

Is that normal? I also can't see the subwoofer in the Speaker presets but I can see the other 5 channels.

 

[Jack B]

Audioholics?

I'll drink to that!

 

[rocketroberto]

Could anybody confirm that the 4800 supports the following:

- having a 3.1 on one zone (LCR) for tv listening
- having a 2.1 on a second zone for music listening in the same room, where this zone uses 2 different speakers from the LCR above, but will use the SAME subwoofer?

If the second zone needs a 2nd sub, I suppose I could run a 2-into-1 rca cable out of the 2 sub outputs. ;-)

Also, ideally all 5 speakers would be powered by an external amp. (The music listening speakers are R7 Metas, so I at least want to throw my Emotiva XPA-5 power at them.)

 

[ban25]

Could anybody confirm that the 4800 supports the following:

- having a 3.1 on one zone (LCR) for tv listening
- having a 2.1 on a second zone for music listening in the same room, where this zone uses 2 different speakers from the LCR above, but will use the SAME subwoofer?

If the second zone needs a 2nd sub, I suppose I could run a 2-into-1 rca cable out of the 2 sub outputs. ;-)

Also, ideally all 5 speakers would be powered by an external amp. (The music listening speakers are R7 Metas, so I at least want to throw my Emotiva XPA-5 power at them.)

R7 Meta are quite easy to drive at 88 dB sensitivity. You are far better off using the amps on the X4800H than the trash tier amps in the Emotiva.

 

[rocketroberto]

how dare you trash my class H+A/B amp! hahhh Nose up in the air with rotel and parasound and such, methinks? But seriously, it's been A/B tested against my friends ridiculous amps (with LS50s, among others, actually) and done quite well. (benchtesting has been good as well) It's never caused problems for me either...

Anyways, orig question stands, hopefully somebody can confirm....

 

[phn]

During Audyssey calibration, I noticed that it played the subwoofer before the tones and if I set it too loud, it made me lower the volume to 75db.

However, during all calibrations the sub played at a volume that was massively lower than all the speakers. I could hear it but it was very attenuated.

Is that normal? I also can't see the subwoofer in the Speaker presets but I can see the other 5 channels.

Yes, that is how it was for me as well. SW plays the tone at a lower frequency yet at the same volume, that is a trick by our ears I believe.

Here's my latest measurement data. I have a X3800H, but that should not matter.

Speakers: 5.1.0 with fronts: Proac Responce 1SCs, center: Proac Response CC, and surrounds: Proac Tablet 50s. SW is SVS Micro 3000.

Audyssey put all crossovers at 40Hz. I have Preset1 as original ("for music"), Preset2 with crossovers at 80Hz ("for movies"). Or that was the plan. I almost never switch off from Preset2, I've found out.

I use DEQ, as it works for me, also because my listening volumes varies.

My latest tinkering was to up the SW level by +1.5dB. Before that, I was often tinkering the SVS app upping the level there by 2dB. I found out, and I don't know why, that doing this via Audyssey setting works better. For my ears, at least.

Finally, regarding the DEQ settings, what I've understood is the key setting to consider together with DEQ is the Reference Level Offset. Roland Sotay in his Secrets of Audyssey book(et) explains, that Audyssey increases surround volume levels by 1dB for every 5dB reduction in volume from reference level 0.

Therefore, listening at -20(dB from 85dB) and with Reference Level Offset at 5 final correction would be -20 + 5 = -15, and surround compensation thus 15/5 = 3dB.

Initially I did compensate this feature by lowering the surround levels with -1.5dB which seemed to work best, but lately I haven't done that. Either I've become used to surround levels varying a bit, or perhaps, my wife's become used to for me to playing streaming content (TV; movies) louder

I have kept RLO at 0, despite the recommendation to try 5 for movies and 10 as the RLO for TV and music content. This could be done at per input I understand, but I haven't bothered, for I am at least for now quite happy how everything comes together.

 

[peng]

R7 Meta are quite easy to drive at 88 dB sensitivity. You are far better off using the amps on the X4800H than the trash tier amps in the Emotiva.

There are no zone2 subwoofer outputs, so it will work if you can somehow use the same subwoofer in the main zone. I have done that with my 2 channel system that is in the same room. If it is in a different room that no, you can't have a real 2.1 system, but you can of course sub a subwoofer, just can't use the AVR to run 2.1 for that zone in a different room.

 

[techsamurai]

Yes, that is how it was for me as well. SW plays the tone at a lower frequency yet at the same volume, that is a trick by our ears I believe.

Here's my latest measurement data. I have a X3800H, but that should not matter.

Speakers: 5.1.0 with fronts: Proac Responce 1SCs, center: Proac Response CC, and surrounds: Proac Tablet 50s. SW is SVS Micro 3000.

Audyssey put all crossovers at 40Hz. I have Preset1 as original ("for music"), Preset2 with crossovers at 80Hz ("for movies"). Or that was the plan. I almost never switch off from Preset2, I've found out.

I use DEQ, as it works for me, also because my listening volumes varies.

My latest tinkering was to up the SW level by +1.5dB. Before that, I was often tinkering the SVS app upping the level there by 2dB. I found out, and I don't know why, that doing this via Audyssey setting works better. For my ears, at least.

Finally, regarding the DEQ settings, what I've understood is the key setting to consider together with DEQ is the Reference Level Offset. Roland Sotay in his Secrets of Audyssey book(et) explains, that Audyssey increases surround volume levels by 1dB for every 5dB reduction in volume from reference level 0.

Therefore, listening at -20(dB from 85dB) and with Reference Level Offset at 5 final correction would be -20 + 5 = -15, and surround compensation thus 15/5 = 3dB.

Initially I did compensate this feature by lowering the surround levels with -1.5dB which seemed to work best, but lately I haven't done that. Either I've become used to surround levels varying a bit, or perhaps, my wife's become used to for me to playing streaming content (TV; movies) louder

I have kept RLO at 0, despite the recommendation to try 5 for movies and 10 as the RLO for TV and music content. This could be done at per input I understand, but I haven't bothered, for I am at least for now quite happy how everything comes together.

Proac's awesome! Never heard them but owners seem to love them.

About the sub, I measured its level with a test tone and its 10db lower at least. It plays it at 75db before the sweeps, then sweeps at ~50db in the calibration. I have to call them to see what the issue is. I also have the SVS3000 Micro.

Are the test tone levels incorrect for the sub? That's another possibility. Did you measure your sub levels after calibration?

The strangest part was that it set the sub's level to -3.5db, lower than all other speakers. I would have expected it to bump it up.

 

[EWL5]

Proac's awesome! Never heard them but owners seem to love them.

About the sub, I measured its level with a test tone and its 10db lower at least. It plays it at 75db before the sweeps, then sweeps at ~50db in the calibration. I have to call them to see what the issue is. I also have the SVS3000 Micro.

Are the test tone levels incorrect for the sub? That's another possibility. Did you measure your sub levels after calibration?

The strangest part was that it set the sub's level to -3.5db, lower than all other speakers. I would have expected it to bump it up.

In the old days, the LFE (0.1 on most MCH tracks) found on most codecs needed to be boosted by 10dB by the downstream receiver (I see no reason why it would be different w/Dolby Atmos, etc.). The calibration done by most AVRs are done properly to provide enough headroom for transient LFE peaks and to protect your subwoofer.

This is another reason why I don't recommend double bass. The boost provided to LFE in the subwoofer would be out of sync with the ones going to the mains. This may not be an issue for most music that lack the 0.1 in their tracks. However, most movie tracks would sound "weird" and probably what you were experiencing recently.

A proper calibration of a subwoofer should be with an RTA (Real Time Analyzer) so don't be shocked by the SPL and gains from Audyssey as it SHOULD NOT be apples to apples with the rest of your speakers!

 

[peng]

Proac's awesome! Never heard them but owners seem to love them.

About the sub, I measured its level with a test tone and its 10db lower at least. It plays it at 75db before the sweeps, then sweeps at ~50db in the calibration. I have to call them to see what the issue is. I also have the SVS3000 Micro.

Are the test tone levels incorrect for the sub? That's another possibility. Did you measure your sub levels after calibration?

The strangest part was that it set the sub's level to -3.5db, lower than all other speakers. I would have expected it to bump it up.

Trust Audyssey and the Mic, as long as you follow instructions to the letter when you run the auto setup. SPL meters, whether you use the Radio Shack one or the Phone apps are often inaccurate and not suitable for use with subwoofers. SVS, or Denon will tell you that.

By the way, I would recommend you read the articles related to the following site, it is well written and easy to understand:

Configuring Audyssey – The Right Way

Find out how to get the best out of you Audyssey receiver in this article by configuring Audyssey the Right Way!

simplehomecinema.com

Audyssey Curve Editor Excel Tool

Please note that the tool is currently in BETA and will stay in BETA until March 2022. Overview The Simple Home Cinema Audyssey Curve Editor Excel Tool (ACET) is provided as complimentary with Secr…

simplehomecinema.com

I highly recommend anyone to us Ratbuddsey with the $20 app, Ratbuddsey is free, but apparently the above linked curve editor, for a few dollars also works, and should be easier to use because it is excel based, assuming everyone knows how to use Excel lol..

 

[ivo.f.doma]

There are no zone2 subwoofer outputs, so it will work if you can somehow use the same subwoofer in the main zone. I have done that with my 2 channel system that is in the same room. If it is in a different room that no, you can't have a real 2.1 system, but you can of course sub a subwoofer, just can't use the AVR to run 2.1 for that zone in a different room.

Just for information, if you bought an Integra 8.4, you would have a separate SW output for both zone 2 and zone 3.