DAC burn-in/break-in? My Gustard X16 measurements

[Pdxwayne]

https://www.rme-audio.de/adi-2-pro-fs-be.html

It is kind of expensive when only used to prove something that doesn't happen though.
But if something is going on this will be the best in the 'affordable' domain.

Thanks! Still appreciate it, though unlikely I would buy it due to price. : )

But it does seem it can work in my stereo setup too. That is nice since it is not just useful for "measurements". Remote too!

Your suggestions to do warm up tests still interesting. With see if I have time to do some "measurements".

Thanks again! I will keep an eye out for sales events of the RME.

 

[solderdude]

best to write 'measurements' (between quotes).
Anyone that has actually done proper measurements will not find your measurements to be actual measurements.
They could be considered an indication at best.

It is very hard to prove something that isn't there (burn-in of your X16)

 

[Pdxwayne]

best to write 'measurements' (between quotes).
Anyone that has actually done proper measurements will not find your measurements to be actual measurements.
They could be considered an indication at best.

It is very hard to prove something that isn't there (burn-in of your X16)

Sure. I can't seem to change the title of my thread......Tips?

 

[GDK]

The rubber necking instinct is irresistible here, can't stop coming back to this thread as it is virtually immortal now.

I agree and I think @solderdude deserves a medal for his patience here (and elsewhere, like the L30 thread), Where can I find the nomination forms?

 

[Pdxwayne]

I agree and I think @solderdude deserves a medal for his patience here (and elsewhere, like the L30 thread), Where can I find the nomination forms?

@solderdude is the cool dude!

 

[Frio]

It is very hard to prove something that isn't there

Exactly, that's why I am not a fan of inverting the burden of proof or asking to be spoonfed here.

As often mentioned if this isn't lame trolling attempt, this whole thing is a great scientific proof of confirmation bias, in both cases there is nothing to educate, win or science out of it and we should maybe stop feeding.

You are a nice guy @Pdxwayne , but the the lack of basic knowledge and the will to proof your impression from day one, whilst also willfullingly ignoring the basic facts about perception limits..
I would personally doubt every measurements that come from you here, sorry. Faking measurements is now the simplest part instead of buying new dacs or bringing other guys to work for your theory, which makes it more likely.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Guys, please don't worry. Even if I get RME and another x16, I can afford to keep both.

What is the worst that could happen? I show that you experts here are right all along. I am the stubborn and the wrong one. But I still ended up with 2 more great devices that I can utilize in my other audio setups.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Exactly, that's why I am not a fan of inverting the burden of proof or asking to be spoonfed here.

As often mentioned if this isn't lame trolling attempt, this whole thing is a great scientific proof of confirmation bias, in both cases there is nothing to educate, win or science out of it and we should maybe stop feeding.

You are a nice guy @Pdxwayne , but the the lack of basic knowledge and the will to proof your impression from day one, whilst also willfullingly ignoring the basic facts about perception limits..
I would personally doubt every measurements that come from you here, sorry. Faking measurements is now the simplest part instead of buying new dacs or bringing other guys to work for your theory, which makes it more likely.

Exactly. Even if I say I can pass blind tests, would anyone believe me without supporting "measurements"? Even then, people will doubt. I still would rather have the "measurements" than not.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Exactly, that's why I am not a fan of inverting the burden of proof or asking to be spoonfed here.

As often mentioned if this isn't lame trolling attempt, this whole thing is a great scientific proof of confirmation bias, in both cases there is nothing to educate, win or science out of it and we should maybe stop feeding.

You are a nice guy @Pdxwayne , but the the lack of basic knowledge and the will to proof your impression from day one, whilst also willfullingly ignoring the basic facts about perception limits..
I would personally doubt every measurements that come from you here, sorry. Faking measurements is now the simplest part instead of buying new dacs or bringing other guys to work for your theory, which makes it more likely.

Regarding my honesty and integrity, simply check my E30 vs KTB thread at https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...topping-e30-listening-tests.17988/post-584856.

In voltage matched blind tests, I can't successfully tell which is which. I didn't fudge any numbers to fit my "agenda".

Regarding my "measurements", those for E30 vs KTB been in the thread for a while. See my January 1st post at https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...topping-e30-listening-tests.17988/post-622482.

If you checked the last 6 "measurements," it would show filter 5 slope faster than all other filters.

If you then check the official measurements from johnyoung of Topping, specifically measured for me more than a month later, at https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...topping-e30-listening-tests.17988/post-665586, you will see indeed filter 5 slope earlier than others.

Where in the world, before I posted my "measurements", in any website, would show you filter 5 slope that early?

Did I do the honest work?

 

[noobie1]

Regarding my honesty and integrity, simply check my E30 vs KTB thread at https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...topping-e30-listening-tests.17988/post-584856.

In voltage matched blind tests, I can't successfully tell which is which. I didn't fudge any numbers to fit my "agenda".

Regarding my "measurements", those for E30 vs KTB been in the thread for a while. See my January 1st post at https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...topping-e30-listening-tests.17988/post-622482.

If you checked the last 6 measurements, it would show filter 5 slope faster than all other filters.

If you then check the official measurements from johnyoung of Topping, specifically measured for me more than a month later, at https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...topping-e30-listening-tests.17988/post-665586, you will see indeed filter 5 slope earlier than others.

Where in the world, before I posted my "measurements", in any website, would show you filter 5 slope that early?

Did I do the honest work?

Have you ever perceived variations in high freq performance of E30 before? I ask because I sometimes feel my system is brighter than normal during a listening session despite not making any changes to my system or listening room. Sometimes, I will notice that my speakers have moved slightly (young kids running around everywhere). Often times I do nothing and that perception goes away the following day. But when I'm in that moment, I often ask my wife to come over to see if she notices anything different. She usually doesn't and thinks I'm way too much into this hobby. I chalk it up to variability of my listening perception >>>> variability of my system.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Have you ever perceived variations in high freq performance of E30 before? I ask because I sometimes feel my system is brighter than normal during a listening session despite not making any changes to my system or listening room. Sometimes, I will notice that my speakers have moved slightly (young kids running around everywhere). Often times I do nothing and that perception goes away the following day. But when I'm in that moment, I often ask my wife to come over to see if she notices anything different. She usually doesn't and thinks I'm way too much into this hobby. I chalk it up to variability of my listening perception >>>> variability of my system.

I don't have much chance listening to E30 in my downstairs stereo setup other than for about 2 weeks, a little while after my E30 vs KTB listening tests completed.

I don't recall E30 was too bright. Actually, I thought KTB was the much brighter one, initially (but KTB was used in another room).

In my downstairs stereo setup, E30 sounded great. I enjoyed music with it.

I have not sensed extra brightness with the DAC, even if my speakers (Paradigm Persona B) is supposed to be bright speakers.

 

[Pdxwayne]

best to write 'measurements' (between quotes).
Anyone that has actually done proper measurements will not find your measurements to be actual measurements.
They could be considered an indication at best.

It is very hard to prove something that isn't there (burn-in of your X16)

I think I now understand your original intent of using quotes.

I was a bit confused and thought you want me to update the title of my thread.

You are asking me to use my word of "measurements" more carefully in future communications, am I correct?

Let's use my table I created last December as an example:

Is it appropriate to word my interpretation of last 6 rows for E30's filters this way?

"The "numbers" from my meter indicate that there is a strong possibility that filter 5 will slope earlier than all other filters, and slope more than all other filter, at least until 10khz."

Sounds more acceptable?

Here is actual measurements from JohnYoung of Topping, so very kind provided to me in February:

Thanks!

 

[Pdxwayne]

best to write 'measurements' (between quotes).
Anyone that has actually done proper measurements will not find your measurements to be actual measurements.
They could be considered an indication at best.

It is very hard to prove something that isn't there (burn-in of your X16)

Ah, just thought of another one.
: )

Continue using the same table and graph from above.

OK to say like this?

"Based on the numbers for the 10khz column for all 6 filters, it indicates that filter 6 likely to have the least drop. Filter 1&3 will have similar level and have second least drop. Filter 2&4 will be similar and have more drop than 1, 3 ,6 at 10khz.

Compared to official measurements from JohnYoung, the indicator seems to able to predict in high accuracy what the real measurements would look like at 10khz for all 6 filters"

Sounds acceptable? Thanks!

 

[solderdude]

I think I now understand your original intent of using quotes.

I was a bit confused and thought you want me to update the title of my thread.

You are asking me to use my word of "measurements" more carefully in future communications, am I correct?

Let's use my table I created last December as an example:
View attachment 115063

Is it appropriate to word my interpretation of last 6 rows for E30's filters this way?

"The "numbers" from my meter indicate that there is a strong possibility that filter 5 will slope earlier than all other filters, and slope more than all other filter, at least until 10khz."

Sounds more acceptable?

Here is actual measurements from JohnYoung of Topping, so very kind provided to me in February:
View attachment 115065

Thanks!

Just plot your measurements using Excel in a similar scale and you can see what I meant with 'measurements'.
Then take REW measurements and you will see the difference and why I call the meter measurements; 'measurements'.

For FR measurements use REW and you should get better results than the meter.
The nulling experiments already showed the wave form coming out of both DACs is for practical intentions the same.
Meaning they cannot sound different not even using music (which doesn't differ from test signals when one remains in the electronic realm without complex loads.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Just plot your measurements using Excel in a similar scale and you can see what I meant with 'measurements'.
Then take REW measurements and you will see the difference and why I call the meter measurements; 'measurements'.

For FR measurements use REW and you should get better results than the meter.
The nulling experiments already showed the wave form coming out of both DACs is for practical intentions the same.
Meaning they cannot sound different not even using music (which doesn't differ from test signals when one remains in the electronic realm without complex loads.

I did the cold start experiment you recommended. The DAC were in garage 24 hours. About 61F to start. Room is 72F.

E30 no change from cold. Thus I stop tracking it.

However, interestingly, X16 went back to the original results (the one I measured when new). 4 hours later still that original new results.

I did 6 minute long song captures and used Deltawave to check difference between E30 and x16. Would you please do a quick check?

Any concerns?
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ave-null-comparison-software.6633/post-687971

Thanks!

 

[Pdxwayne]

Just plot your measurements using Excel in a similar scale and you can see what I meant with 'measurements'.
Then take REW measurements and you will see the difference and why I call the meter measurements; 'measurements'.

For FR measurements use REW and you should get better results than the meter.
The nulling experiments already showed the wave form coming out of both DACs is for practical intentions the same.
Meaning they cannot sound different not even using music (which doesn't differ from test signals when one remains in the electronic realm without complex loads.

Let's continue here.

The x16 got to 81F from 61F in 4 hours. But I still get "measurements"/“numbers“ I got when I measured it new. Strange.

E30, on the other hand, measured the same from cold. No difference from previous numbers. It also stays around room temperature in 4 hours and don't get as warm as the x16.

I have placed X16 in garage again. Will measure again maybe in half a day or so.

 

[solderdude]

As mentioned... sweep it using REW (set to -3dB input).
You can even use the 'scope' function when sweeping (set the sweep period long and perhaps let it sweep 8x) and have a look at the waveform when sweeping (screen shots ?)

Also you can do this but with the generator set to - many dB's.

 

[Pdxwayne]

As mentioned... sweep it using REW.
You can even use the 'scope' function when sweeping (set the sweep period long and perhaps let it sweep 8x) and have a look at the waveform when sweeping (screen shots ?)

I have not used sweep nor scope function. Will need to learn to do it. Thanks!

 

[solderdude]

That's called measuring. Also requires a learning curve.

 

[Pdxwayne]

That's called measuring. Also requires a learning curve.

Ah, now I remember about sweep. I believe I used it a couple years ago to check my speakers using microphone. : )

That should be easy. I will pretend the output from the Scarlett Solo is the mic output. : )