DAC burn-in/break-in? My Gustard X16 measurements

[Pdxwayne]

Ask yourself what are you trying to accomplish exactly.
Last time, you worried about different frequency response at different level. I measured and no issue whatsoever across a wide range of DACs.
This time it's warm up/break in. In either case it's not significant to cause any issue by your own measurement.

What do you want to know and what exactly is missing?

I don't think you should be buying anything more just for the sake of doing it. You don't need to. You should be listening to music.

Thanks for commenting in this thread twice!
Appreciate it!

Simple, I want to know if DAC break in could happen or not and how to measure for it. : )

My question have been consistent. Why I prefer E30's highs when I first listen to X16 with my stereo setup?

Other than the obvious hearing, mood, health, bias, memory, and volume matching problem, any other explanations, like burn in/break in, possible?

How stable are all the components inside a DAC? Could any of those cause the initial high freq issue I observed?

You are the expert here.

You have plenty of different DAC on hands and I supposed you can easily access brand new DAC?

Maybe you can save me plenty of time and money if you can help put this to rest?

Find a few brand new DAC with similar interior components of x16, do some first time boot measurements/if possible, listening tests, and see if they all perform perfectly right out of factory.

Thanks a bunch!

 

[Jimbob54]

My question have been consistent. Why I prefer E30's highs when I first listen to X16 with my stereo setup?

You have still missed the point. This is the core of what you are chasing. Validation of your uncontrolled experience .

Before you, or anyone else, should start seeking explanations for anything, you have to be clear there is something to explain. The time has passed for you or anyone else to prove the X16 sounded different to the E30 when it was new because you didnt do controlled listening tests . If everyone here does what you ask, buys new DACs and measures audible differences between first boot and days/ weeks later, it still does not validate your uncontrolled , memory reliant observations about the highs (to your mind ) sounding different on YOUR new X16 to the E30.

The wealth of evidence suggests (leaving aside physical warm up, as @mansr showed) that electronics do not audibly change properties over time, so there is little point anyone testing it further. Unless reliable studies suggest otherwise.

You cant say "but what if it wasnt in my mood/ mind, tell me what else it could be"- which is what you are basically asking. Because you havent ruled out it being your mood/ mind. That is the most logical explanation, the one most people here strongly suspect is in play. You have to rule that out, then proceed.

 

[Pdxwayne]

You have still missed the point. This is the core of what you are chasing. Validation of your uncontrolled experience .

Before you, or anyone else, should start seeking explanations for anything, you have to be clear there is something to explain. The time has passed for you or anyone else to prove the X16 sounded different to the E30 when it was new because you didnt do controlled listening tests . If everyone here does what you ask, buys new DACs and measures audible differences between first boot and days/ weeks later, it still does not validate your uncontrolled , memory reliant observations about the highs (to your mind ) sounding different on YOUR new X16 to the E30.

The wealth of evidence suggests (leaving aside physical warm up, as @mansr showed) that electronics do not audibly change properties over time, so there is little point anyone testing it further. Unless reliable studies suggest otherwise.

You cant say "but what if it wasnt in my mood/ mind, tell me what else it could be"- which is what you are basically asking. Because you havent ruled out it being your mood/ mind. That is the most logical explanation, the one most people here strongly suspect is in play. You have to rule that out, then proceed.

The problem is how to rule that out if the issue of DAC is temporary and disappear with time.

I would really appreciate it if you can find a link of such study of brand new vs used DAC comparison. Thanks!

 

[voodooless]

The problem is how to rule that out if the issue of DAC is temporary and disappear with time.

Ignore it and enjoy!

 

[Jimbob54]

The problem is how to rule that out if the issue of DAC is temporary and disappear with time.

No. The problem is to prove there was an issue with the DAC in the first place. You haven't and cant now do that. Further investigation is futile unless a large number of X16 new owners provide credible evidence they do observed audible change over time. And you know what that entails. Not simply other users saying "I noticed that too".

 

[Pdxwayne]

No. The problem is to prove there was an issue with the DAC in the first place. You haven't and cant now do that. Further investigation is futile unless a large number of X16 new owners provide credible evidence they do observed audible change over time. And you know what that entails. Not simply other users saying "I noticed that too".

Thus I ask what can one do to measure such issue.

I think @JohnYang1997 is in a very unique position.
Surely he can access plenty of new DAC fresh from factory and do his typical measurments and listening tests and provide his study conclusion here in a brand new thread. This will surely help save people like me plenty of time and money.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Ignore it and enjoy!

I am enjoying both E30 and x16.

But curiosity........

 

[Jimbob54]

Thus I ask what can one do to measure such issue.

I think @JohnYang1997 is in a very unique position.
Surely he can access plenty of new DAC fresh from factory and do his typical measurments and listening tests and provide his study conclusion here in a brand new thread. This will surely help save people like me plenty of time and money.

Again. No. Prove there is an issue to measure. Don't create implausible theories for others to validate. You keep asserting an issue. Most if not all here have said many times they do not believe there is an issue. Convince us there is , then people may assist. SIY told you this. As have others.

Why should John start hooking up a load of DACs to his analyser, from the production line or wherever, to investigate something he (from his training and experience ) knows doesnt exist?

And I restate - if John did such a test and it miraculously showed some Topping DACs exhibited possible audible change between hour 2 and day 7, this still does not prove that is what you "heard" re your X16.

 

[voodooless]

I am enjoying both E30 and x16.

But curiosity........

Well, I said “AND” enjoy.. not “OR”

There is a pattern here in only taking half of our advice

 

[Pdxwayne]

I do appreciate many of you still continue to try educate me.

Now, do you believe the components used on a modern DAC board like x16 are similar to those in 30 years old DAC, 20 years old DAC, 10 years old DAC, 5 years old DAC, and even 2 years old DAC?

What make you so sure that all this combinations of newer components on x16 would behave like all older DAC you have tested?

 

[Jimbob54]

I do appreciate many of you still continue to try educate me.

Now, do you believe the components used on a modern DAC board like x16 are similar to those in 30 years old DAC, 20 years old DAC, 10 years old DAC, 5 years old DAC, and even 2 years old DAC?

What make you so sure that all this combinations of newer components on x16 would behave like all older DAC you have tested?

Seriously. Please stop it now. You are heading into "you can't prove I am wrong territory"- which is all kinds of wrong.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Seriously. Please stop it now. You are heading into "you can't prove I am wrong territory"- which is all kinds of wrong.

I am trying to prove myself wrong. Thus I have been asking for correct ways to check.

I really appreciate so many people here offering guidance.

Please, don't just ask me to stop researching my curiosity, without providing any recent studies that prove burn in does not happen.

 

[Purité Audio]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, two identical dacs one brand new one ‘burn’t in’ and compare unsighted.
Keith

 

[iann]

 

[Pdxwayne]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, two identical dacs one brand new one ‘burn’t in’ and compare unsighted.
Keith

Yes, this is what I intent to do.

If I say I passed initial tests, but failed all others subsequent ones, would you take my words and say burn in indeed happens?

If not, what else can I present to ASR? This is what I have been asking. Gettimg properly measured results (when DAC is brand new) to further support my blind tests results

 

[solderdude]

Other than the obvious hearing, mood, health, bias, memory, and volume matching problem, any other explanations, like burn in/break in, possible?

The answer is no. The test you are about to do also has nothing to do with burn-in. It is only about warm-up.

How stable are all the components inside a DAC? Could any of those cause the initial high freq issue I observed?

Temperature stability hangs on the total design, one could go up, others may go down. All semiconductors perform differently under different temperatures. They can't do what you observed though.

Also it will happen every time (warm-up) and not happen over time and then stabilize (improve).

The problem is how to rule that out if the issue of DAC is temporary and disappear with time.

This is something electronic components do not do unless they are vacuum tubes or very old (decades) capacitors that haven't been switched on in years. Components may need time to get into a proper operation point (again warm-up) not break-in. Maybe a faulty component could do something poorly at first but in general don't improve but get worse over time. Some defective components can 'act up' randomly (those in the repair business will know how frustrating those faults can be). There could be intermittent contacts but these do NOT do what you described and 'measured' either.

What make you so sure that all this combinations of newer components on x16 would behave like all older DAC you have tested?

The product would have gotten poor reviews and all owners would complain. There would be one or more people doing proper tests on those devices.
The problem is you cannot roll back time and your measurements will not be good enough. You lack the test equipment and knowledge on what and how to test.
Ears are the worst repeatable and reliable test devices in existence. One step above that is using a multimeter in ways it was not designed for.

Buy a RME, learn how to work with it and test. Make sure you have everything ready for testing. Buy a few new X16 and measure the crap out of them. Don't be surprised you would only see some very small warm-up effects below audibility levels that are highly repeatable time and time again.
You won't find any X16 that improve over time and after X-period stops improving and starts to behave like any other DAC from that moment forward.

 

[Inner Space]

This thread reminds me of an unsuspecting-public, hidden-camera comedy sketch I saw decades ago. A guy was walking around Manhattan with a map of Los Angeles, asking strangers to show him the way to the Tower of London. Initial polite responses gave way to exasperation.

 

[iann]

The rubber necking instinct is irresistible here, can't stop coming back to this thread as it is virtually immortal now.

 

[Pdxwayne]

The answer is no. The test you are about to do also has nothing to do with burn-in. It is only about warm-up.



Temperature stability hangs on the total design, one could go up, others may go down. All semiconductors perform differently under different temperatures. They can't do what you observed though.

Also it will happen every time (warm-up) and not happen over time and then stabilize (improve).



This is something electronic components do not do unless they are vacuum tubes or very old (decades) capacitors that haven't been switched on in years. Components may need time to get into a proper operation point (again warm-up) not break-in.



The product would have gotten poor reviews and all owners would complain. There would be one or more people doing proper tests on those devices.
The problem is you cannot roll back time and your measurements will not be good enough. You lack the test equipment and knowledge on what and how to test.
Ears are the worst repeatable and reliable test devices in existence. One step above that is using a multimeter in ways it was not designed for.

Buy a RME, learn how to work with it and test. Make sure you have everything ready for testing. Buy a few new X16 and measure the crap out of them. Don't be surprised you would only see some very small warm-up effects below audibility levels that are highly repeatable time and time again.
You won't find any X16 that improve over time and after X-period stops improving and starts to behave like any other DAC from that moment forward.

Please suggest a most affordable, but good enough RME model? Thanks!

Just curious, doesn't mean I want to buy one. : )

 

[solderdude]

https://www.rme-audio.de/adi-2-pro-fs-be.html
https://www.lynxstudio.com/products/hilo/

It is kind of expensive when only used to prove something that doesn't happen though.
But if something is going on this will be the best in the 'affordable' domain.
Also see post: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ard-x16-measurements.20679/page-9#post-686383