Can't we all just get along?

[amirm]

Was the power cable being tested plugged into anything? If not why?

He said it wrong. AC cable was plugged in so was fully live and radiating mains. I use that to test RCA cables all the time and often find interference. That he thinks there is no radiation unless you hook it up to something shows he doesn't know the basics of electronics here.

 

[amirm]

Can you provide a link to this research? Logically, that doesn’t make sense when the goal is to achieve excellent stereo sound.

Here is a video I did on that include all the research references:

You can also read Dr. Floyd Toole's book.

 

[Axo1989]

This a case where car analogy does not work. Many cars now have two different size tires front to rear and some on top of that have asymmetrical tread. Plus plus there is at least one Yokohama that is directional in regard to rotation. When mounted they look like you messed up mounting asymmetrical tires, but in fact that is how they should go.

I forgot about directional tread. Had some once, Goodyears maybe? The were great wet weather tyres from memory. I recall driving insanely fast on an empty freeway in the driving rain, but couldn't get them to aquaplane. My passenger started screaming. I'm more grown-up now and perhaps surprisingly, still alive.

 

[amirm]

I disagree with that. Yes, some aspects of the sound like the thing you call "base sound" may be easier to hear with just one speaker playing, but there is a bunch of other aspects that you completely ignore by not listening to the pair of speakers like they were intended to be listened to. I'm not a fan of Danny but the things he takes up in that video about stereo effects, like imaging, layering, and separation are indeed things that separate different speaker pairs from each other. Those aspects are of course somewhere in the measurements and probably a combination of more than one single thing, but until someone figures that out, I think all reviewers including Amir should have the speakers properly set up in stereo, and actually listen to them like they were intended to be used.

What possible use is there to you of how the speaker images in my room, in my setup, in my listening position, etc.? Those are all the things that impact it, yes? Yet you want me to pontificate on them when they can have no applicability to your situation? Really?

Let's focus on what we know: quantifying distortion and frequency response. Both of these are best identified in mono. This is what research strongly shows. We leave 10 to 20% unknown here but better to do that than to spit out nonsense about layering, imagine, etc.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I forgot about directional tread. Had some once, Goodyears maybe? The were great wet weather tyres from memory. I recall driving insanely fast on an empty freeway in the driving rain, but couldn't get them to aquaplane. My passenger started screaming. I'm more grown-up now and perhaps surprisingly, still alive.

Goodyear Aquatred, I had some too. Unbelievable in the rain. But by about 30% wear with 70% remaining they became only slightly better than other tires in the rain.

 

[Holmz]

I would certainly agree -- at least to the point that if one loudspeaker playing by itself doesn't sound good in a given environment, adding a second one ain't gonna help!

Adding one helps, and adding 4 more helps even more.

 

[mhardy6647]

Secondhand ESLs were my first actual speaker purchase (I could afford them initially because a bass panel on each was kaput). Don't remember why I went for classics. Sold because I couldn't keep up the maintenance (housemates turned them up to arcing way too often). Also challenging SOAF (significant other acceptance factor) at times. Do wish I'd kept them though, I could afford a really nice rebuild now, and I'd know how to integrate subs.

It's usually the tweeter panels that get smoked (first) -- as I am sure you know.
My pair were a lucky find. They're late model 57s, and they've never been rebuilt. They're in good condition, but overdue for a refresh.
As an aside, by sheer coincidence, I live less than a half-hour away from Sheldon Stokes.

SDS Audio Labs - Home of Quad Loudspeaker Rebuilds for Over 20 Years

ESL-57s are amazing but hard to live with loudspeakers, being insensitive, hard to drive and intolerant of too much power. Plus they have terrible vertical treble dispersion. Everyone should spend some quality time listening to a pair, though, IMO.

 

[Doodski]

It's usually the tweeter panels that get smoked (first) -- as I am sure you know.
My pair were a lucky find. They're late model 57s, and they've never been rebuilt. They're in good condition, but overdue for a refresh.
As an aside, by sheer coincidence, I live less than a half-hour away from Sheldon Stokes.

SDS Audio Labs - Home of Quad Loudspeaker Rebuilds for Over 20 Years

ESL-57s are amazing but hard to live with loudspeakers, being insensitive, hard to drive and intolerant of too much power. Plus they have terrible vertical treble dispersion. Everyone should spend some quality time listening to a pair, though, IMO.

I heard a pair about 30 years ago with a soft guitar track and they sounded like a guitar for sure. The owner would not let me try some of my hard rock tracks so I never got a handle on that.

 

[amirm]

I only have one question about this video. What about the argument for an "industry standard" of smoothing out the frequency spectrum?
What is the "industry standard" or the norm?

You could thank wrong-headed ancient industry practices for that which should have been discontinued long time ago but have not. Here is Dr. Toole lamenting in his book:

He goes on to say:

So no, there is no such standard. It is an old practice for the time when we didn't have a fraction of computational abilities we have today. Really for someone to trying to defend such featureless and smoothed response for a speaker is unconscionable. The only thing worse than that is not explaining that this is what he has been doing all along until I came out and pointed it out.

 

[amirm]

Is Danny not up to speed on this international standard? Appears he is not.

It did not even register with him when I pointed out the standard to him in my email:

Amir: And at any rate, [your measurements] are not compliant with CEA-2034 which allows research into audibility of measurements to be applied to them.
Danny: I am not at all concerned and neither are our customers.

I have watched a lot of Danny's videos. Not once have I seen a reference to a research paper of any kind. Or any other expert or authority in the field. None. I am confident he wouldn't know who Sean Olive is. So no wonder he doesn't know the science.

 

[GXAlan]

There are no speakers in the world that are designed with the goal to achieve excellent stereo sound.
The only speakers that were designed with the goal to achieve excellent stereo sound from the ground up is the LXmini by Siegfried Linkwitz.

I would add the JBL Paragon, Everest DD55000, S/2600, S/3100, S3100 MkII fall into that realm with their asymmetrical horns. My S/2600 has been in hibernation for over a year due to home repairs and I finally got them running this evening and even though they don’t have the high frequency fidelity of a modern speaker, I genuinely think this design gives some of the most practical stereo performance in a mixed use listening room.

The asymmetrical horns are design to make the midrange quieter the closer you get to a speaker which gives you the uncanny ability to maintain a center image with balanced volume over a much wider area. The disadvantage is that the asymmetry isn’t linear because the compression driver has the horn but not the main woofer or in the case of the Everest, the UHF driver. There are those who are more sensitive to comb filtering as well.

Generally, it’s a clear trade off where you give up the peak performance in the sweet spot for the asymmetrical dispersion designed to allow multiple users to maintain a stereo image.

 

[markus]

I would love to read a respectful response to Danny's statements and allegations from ASR. I'm not interested in a pissin' match from forum members.

Wow. For someone complaining about getting treated disrespectfully he gets quickly really disrespectful towards some imaginary "them". Calling people with opposing views "a bunch of naysaying dogs incited by a dark leader that has no clue about the topic".

He clearly is confused about what data the Klippel near field system captures and the many ways those measurements can be used. Reading the Clio manual doesn't help when you want to talk about the Klippel system.

But thanks for confirming what Amir's measurements show: a smallish fullrange driver design is severely limited in output and full of tradeoffs. The measurements put that into perspective. The marketing material on the GR website and forums does not. They just push one message, "man, these little drivers sound so good, you will be blown away – detail level, clarity, the vocals", and let the blanks get filled in by the consumer's imagination and wishful thinking. Talking about respect, this is an intellectual insult at best. Deception at worst. Don't want to single him out, that's just how audio marketing has been conducted for decades. Time for a change.

But what concerns me most is the amount of positive comments he gets. And virtually only positive comments. You find that for nearly every (controversial) topic. That's what makes YouTube really dangerous. Even for the stupidest of positions it works as an amplifier.

 

[Thomas_A]

This GR research guy is really trying to trick people with his voodoo. Strangely he seems to have at least one speaker that perform rather well while the mini-speakers are a joke. And even though speakers in mono vs. stereo get different timbre for a mono source, I am certain that this GR guy does not have any clue what that is about.

 

[voodooless]

Is Danny not up to speed

That seems to be the recurring theme here..

 

[voodooless]

But what concerns me most is the amount of positive comments he gets. And virtually only positive comments. You find that for nearly every (controversial) topic. That's what makes YouTube really dangerous. Even the stupidest of positions works as an amplifier.

What do you expect? It’s heavily moderated, a pinned comment even says so. It’s all one glorious Danny show… one should not care to much, though. Clearly people are finding other voices as well, otherwise he wouldn’t have bothered.

 

[Geert]

31:40 in the video: 2 speakers playing togheter at 96 dB have a combined SPL of 102 dB. Wrong. Δ L = 10 × log n

 

[raif71]

Wow. For someone complaining about getting treated disrespectfully he gets quickly really disrespectful towards some imaginary "them". Calling people with opposing views "a bunch of naysaying dogs incited by a dark leader that has no clue about the topic".
He clearly is confused about what data the Klippel system captures and the many ways those measurements can be used.

But what concerns me most is the amount of positive comments he gets. And virtually only positive comments. You find that for nearly every (controversial) topic. That's what makes YouTube really dangerous. Even the stupidest of positions works as an amplifier.

Well, he is the underdog... to some people...

 

[amirm]

But what concerns me most is the amount of positive comments he gets. And virtually only positive comments.

He deletes a bunch of comments. Even poor folks commenting know that theirs would be deleted. In his last LGK review, poster after poster would link to my video review and a few minutes later, they would be gone.

 

[goat76]

What possible use is there to you of how the speaker images in my room, in my setup, in my listening position, etc.? Those are all the things that impact it, yes? Yet you want me to pontificate on them when they can have no applicability to your situation? Really?

Let's focus on what we know: quantifying distortion and frequency response. Both of these are best identified in mono. This is what research strongly shows. We leave 10 to 20% unknown here but better to do that than to spit out nonsense about layering, imagine, etc.

It's not just about the listening room. It's the opposite, the more you reduce what your room is adding to the equation the more you will hear the room in the recording and how the speaker images that stereo information.

If a specific pair of speakers are properly setup in a fairly good listening room, a room that is not masking the sound too much and give you a better ratio of the direct sound from the speakers, you will hear how they render the stereo field different than other speakers, and that same characteristic will follow them from a room to another.

The characteristics of the speakers will often differ, some speakers have a more forward "in your face" kind of sound while others sound more laid back, and some speakers can image a wider sound field while another is giving you a more focused sound and sometimes better layering and depth.
I have nothing against using one single speaker for quantifying distortion and frequency responses, but there is so much more to the characteristics of a pair of speakers that can only be heard by listening to them in stereo.

It's not nonsense, it's a big part of how a specific pair of speakers reproduce the information that's on the recordings, and it can be "everything" for a listener and the deciding factor why the person chooses that specific pair of speakers over another.

 

[markus]

He deletes a bunch of comments. Even poor folks commenting know that theirs would be deleted. In his last LGK review, poster after poster would link to my video review and a few minutes later, they would be gone.

Censorship, plain and simple.

Even worse, when you give him a thumbs down it won't be visible to others but will remove his videos from your suggestion list which in turn amplifies his message even more. People end up in "opinion silos". Here it's just audio but the same applies for topics of much greater importance.