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Can't we all just get along?

dfuller

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Why in the hell wouldn't you want to listen to both speakers in a listening test?
According to Toole, it's much easier to hear the tonality of a single speaker than of two or more.
I only have one question about this video. What about the argument for an "industry standard" of smoothing out the frequency spectrum?
What is the "industry standard" or the norm?
There isn't one*; generally speaking anything less than 1/6oct isn't really high res enough for anything other than general trends. High resolution (IIRC the Klippel NFS is like 1/20oct? someone please correct me if I'm wrong) measurements can, however, show unpleasant looking things that aren't necessarily audible. However according to Toole, the most audible frequency response defects are resonances, and those generally only show up in a high resolution measurement.

Danny uses 1/3 oct smoothing and gated measurements, which limits possible resolution. This does allow measurement in a non-anechoic environment without a Klippel, but you don't need it - @napilopez has a method for high res spins. So unless a resonance is really obvious, you can't find them without good measurement resolution.

*CEA/CTA 2034 is a standard, but not a widely used one.
 

tomelex

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I think the point that should not be lost here is that a kit was supplied, and assembled with the instructions supplied, and tested as supplied. That it was not supplied with insulation or whatever substance that is known by all ( the volkswagon analogy in the video) as a requirement to dampen resonances does not apply as the kit did not come with this stuff. The kit failed to impress because it is incomplete either in instructions or in provided parts. We review audio science here, and so that involves measurements and they did not look very good. If Amir subjectively said it sounded good as provided I think we would have all been in shell shock, like we were being pounded by artillery.

I really believe Danny will update his instructions or parts as far as insulation in this speaker and then it should be a win for DIY folks in future.
 
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posvibes

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I have always thought that the stereo effect is a psycho-acoustic construction of the mind, imagining a speaker designer making design decisions around the goal of high fidelity with two speakers seems to me insane.
 

dfuller

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If Amir subjectively said it sounded good as provided I think we would have all been in shell shock, like we were being pounded by artillery.
Shades of TuneTots.
 

mj30250

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Asymmetrical tread patterns aren't at all uncommon (including the Michelins on my car). You'd need to account for this when testing lateral grip for example. Less common but not unheard of, different tread patterns for front and rear, You'd need to account for this when testing longitudinal grip.
You're adding unnecessary complexity to a rather simply analogy. Of course the assumption in this case is that all four tires would be identical, just as two speakers in a typical stereo pair would be identical.
 

DonH56

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Most of the sound from a pair of speakers is direct, i.e. a line from the speakers to the listener. That is the same mono or stereo. Directivity, or dispersion if you prefer, along with the room's effects (reflections and such), influence the "space" you hear. Research from Toole and others indicate smooth off-axis response is critical to that. Which is measured using a single speaker. Using two bad speakers in a stereo pair does not make them better than two good speakers in a stereo pair. These "single speaker testing is meaningless/wrong/whatever" arguments pop up on all audio fora almost inevitably driven by some "expert" or lay person unwilling or unable to understand the decades of research behind the reason for single-speaker testing, and who have already decided the answer so any contrary arguments are attacked and discarded.
 

Axo1989

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You're adding unnecessary complexity to a rather simply analogy. Of course the assumption in this case is that all four tires would be identical, just as two speakers in a typical stereo pair would be identical.
In the case of asymmetric tread, all four tires are identical.
 

mj30250

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In the case of asymmetric tread, all four tires are identical.
Then include the assumption that the tires have symmetric treads if that's what's necessary for the analogy to work for you.
 

Sal1950

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Here's the short of it IME
Testing a speaker in mono and it's frequency response, etc; will tell you if a speaker has the capability to reproduce the sound of real instruments if that's what contained on the source.
When you go on talk about it's "stereo" imaging and such, that can largely be determined from looking at it's radiation pattern through measurements done using tools like the Kippel and how it interfaces with the room. Stereo sound and imaging are more dependent on the room and speaker setup than any one particular speaker trait.
 

audiofooled

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Ok, so the site should be renamed then. Now I have even less respect for him. If he designed it properly in the first place it would have been so tiny he couldn't even think about this kind of price or "marketing strategy", and he knows it. But I guess that wouldn't fit his business model.
 

mhardy6647

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Saw the Quad ESL-57 mentioned.
Interestingly, it was designed as a monaural loudspeaker.


081320_vintge_gear_quad_esl-57_promo.jpg



A pair do work pretty well for stereo though.
(especially with vinyl -- ahem. ;) )



And Ravi Shankar, e.g., used a whole bunch of them for sound reinforcement.
Eight, based on a google search -- Can I find the photograph I remember of the event?

giphy (5).gif
 

Axo1989

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Saw the Quad ESL-57 mentioned.
Interestingly, it was designed as a monaural loudspeaker.


081320_vintge_gear_quad_esl-57_promo.jpg



A pair do work pretty well for stereo though.
(especially with vinyl -- ahem. ;) )



And Ravi Shankar, e.g., used a whole bunch of them for sound reinforcement.
Eight, based on a google search -- Can I find the photograph I remember of the event?

View attachment 214920

Fascinating post, thank you. Yeah I'd like to see that photo too, oh well.
 

mhardy6647

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Fascinating post, thank you. Yeah I'd like to see that photo too, oh well.
The internet has eaten it. :(
The wayback machine has no snapshots of the URL.
I only learned much later in life that if one ever sees anything interesting on teh webz, one should immediately submit the URL to the wayback machine for archiving. :confused:

Here's a reference to it, e.g., from audioasulum (there are a number of mentions at various forums, albeit some of them by me).
 

Blumlein 88

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Then include the assumption that the tires have symmetric treads if that's what's necessary for the analogy to work for you.
This a case where car analogy does not work. Many cars now have two different size tires front to rear and some on top of that have asymmetrical tread. Plus plus there is at least one Yokohama that is directional in regard to rotation. When mounted they look like you messed up mounting asymmetrical tires, but in fact that is how they should go.
 

Axo1989

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The internet has eaten it. :(
The wayback machine has no snapshots of the URL.
I only learned much later in life that if one ever sees anything interesting on teh webz, one should immediately submit the URL to the wayback machine for archiving. :confused:

Here's a reference to it, e.g., from audioasulum (there are a number of mentions at various forums, albeit some of them by me).

Secondhand ESLs were my first actual speaker purchase (I could afford them initially because a bass panel on each was kaput). Don't remember why I went for classics. Sold because I couldn't keep up the maintenance (housemates turned them up to arcing way too often). Also challenging SOAF (significant other acceptance factor) at times. Do wish I'd kept them though, I could afford a really nice rebuild now, and I'd know how to integrate subs.
 

mj30250

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This a case where car analogy does not work. Many cars now have two different size tires front to rear and some on top of that have asymmetrical tread. Plus plus there is at least one Yokohama that is directional in regard to rotation. When mounted they look like you messed up mounting asymmetrical tires, but in fact that is how they should go.
This is why I specified that all of the tires would be the same in this case, and they would be mounted to the same vehicle (necessitating that all of its wheels would be sized for the same tires).

But alright, clearly it wasn't an analogy built to withstand pedantry. Apologies.
 
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