Big news coming from Sound United in 2023!

[Sal1950]

The AV10 seems to be the processor to beat unless you need Trinnov.

I'll believe it when I see some independent measurements.

 

[Newman]

Wink noted.

 

[peng]

I'll believe it when I see some independent measurements.

You can see the measurements now!! Looks like it is the best $8,000 (with DLBC license factored in) preamp processor currently available, based on specs, measurements, and features.

Marantz AV 10 15.4CH AV Processor Bench Test Results!

It's not surprising that the Marantz AV 10 15.4CH 8K AV Processor produced excellent bench test results. This $7K processor has bass management features no other competitor has in this price class such as LFE Bass Routing and Bass Re-distribution. We thoroughly test these features to show you...

forums.audioholics.com

 

[GXAlan]

You can see the measurements now!! Looks like it is the best $8,000 (with DLBC license factored in) preamp processor currently available, based on specs, measurements, and features.

96 dB is pretty good, but it’s likely that Gene is hitting the limits of his APx585. These numbers are worse than what SU was showing.

Still, look at low power. At 500 mV, the AV10 is about 0.01%

Compare that to the good channels of the Yamaha A6A. At 0.5V, it is better than 0.01% with all Yamaha DSP on and 0.005% with DSP off which shows that the APx585 can get down to that level

If I do the math, 0.5V from preout means

14V with a 29 dB gain amplifier
9.6V wih a 25.7 dB HypeX amplifier

With a 4 ohm load, you are looking at almost 50 watts or 23W with the HypeX.

Since you should be doing 85 dB averages at reference level, it really shows you you are dealing with very low voltages most of time.

Granted, I just showed that 22 dB SINAD isn’t as bad as you think… but with home theater amplifiers, I would argue that you end up staying at much lower preamp voltages than you do with the scenario of a traditional DAC where 2V/4V makes a lot of sense as a number if you are using traditional amplifier gains.

In other words, I think the full curve is a lot more important for AVRs than they are for 2 ch.

@amirm, did I do the math right? Since 5W is the standard we use for AVRs, does it make sense to ALSO show a AV processor dashboard at 0.2V or so (which gets you to 4.5V with 26 or 29 db gain amp, rounded to a single digit).

I think this also shows the value of low gain amplifiers like the AHB2 which will really let you take full advantage of the sweet spot of your processor.

 

[DerRoland]

Gene praise the AV10 with "class leading measurements", but when I compare the sinad result at 2V (92db unbalanced) with amirs AVC-8500 review, the winner is still the AVC-8500 with 102dB sinad.

 

[GXAlan]

Gene praise the AV10 with "class leading measurements", but when I compare the sinad result at 2V (92db unbalanced) with amirs AVC-8500 review, the winner is still the AVC-8500 with 102dB sinad.

Amir had the APx555 while Gene has the APx585 so the numbers aren’t comparable. That said, the lower voltage performance concerns me when wanting maximum SINAD at my typical listening levels.

Sound United themselves claim 106 dB

 

[peng]

96 dB is pretty good, but it’s likely that Gene is hitting the limits of his APx585. These numbers are worse than what SU was showing.

Still, look at low power. At 500 mV, the AV10 is about 0.01%View attachment 281807
Compare that to the good channels of the Yamaha A6A. At 0.5V, it is better than 0.01% with all Yamaha DSP on and 0.005% with DSP off which shows that the APx585 can get down to that levelView attachment 281809

If I do the math, 0.5V from preout means

14V with a 29 dB gain amplifier
9.6V wih a 25.7 dB HypeX amplifier

With a 4 ohm load, you are looking at almost 50 watts or 23W with the HypeX.

Since you should be doing 85 dB averages at reference level, it really shows you you are dealing with very low voltages most of time.

Granted, I just showed that 22 dB SINAD isn’t as bad as you think… but with home theater amplifiers, I would argue that you end up staying at much lower preamp voltages than you do with the scenario of a traditional DAC where 2V/4V makes a lot of sense as a number if you are using traditional amplifier gains.

In other words, I think the full curve is a lot more important for AVRs than they are for 2 ch.

@amirm, did I do the math right? Since 5W is the standard we use for AVRs, does it make sense to ALSO show a AV processor dashboard at 0.2V or so (which gets you to 4.5V with 26 or 29 db gain amp, rounded to a single digit).

I think this also shows the value of low gain amplifiers like the AHB2 which will really let you take full advantage of the sweet spot of your processor.

Your math is right to the first decimal place.

Obviously a "full curve" is better and I hope Amir will standardize on one that goes down to 100 mV, or better still, 50 mV, that's where my preamp would stay most of the time. I don't know if Amir's AP can measure accurate enough at such low input level.

 

[GXAlan]

Your math is right to the first decimal place.

Obviously a "full curve" is better and I hope Amir will standardize on one that goes down to 100 mV, or better still, 50 mV, that's where my preamp would stay most of the time. I don't know if Amir's AP can measure accurate enough at such low input level.

Yeah, lots of convenient rounding up and down

I would think so. Main problem with the E1DA is the DC that becomes an issue when assessing such low signals. I need to get the RME ADI 2/4 to do better measurements, but when choosing between getting a better analytical instrument or a 300B SET to play with for the same money, the toy is going to win!

 

[peng]

Amir had the APx555 while Gene has the APx585 so the numbers aren’t comparable. That said, the lower voltage performance concerns me when wanting maximum SINAD at my typical listening levels.

What is the spl at your typical listening levels?
At 0.2 V, THD+N looks to be around -73 dB, if the curve maintains the degradation trend, even at well below 0.1 V SINAD will still be at around 70 dB, so distortions+N will be at or less than -70 dB, say at 0.05 V.

0.05 V, with amp gain = 26 dB, 8 ohms, Vout will be 1 V. Unless your speakers have really high sensitivity, 70 dB SINAD is not going to be an issue for you right?

 

[peng]

It seems to me that while it is a legit concern about the need for high SINAD at very low output level, it also seems often that people forgot to evaluate the individual case where lower SINAD may not be a practical issue if the spl (that corresponds to the output level) listen to may also be very low. As an extreme example, if I listen to spl of 60 dB average, 80 dB peak, then even 70 dB SINAD would put distortions in the -10 dB below the fundamental frequencies I listen to, without even considering the noise floor and masking effects.

 

[multisport4me]

This is like friggin' xmas. Amir posted the DMP-A6 review and Gene posted the AV10 review on the same day. Thanks to Amir for getting the DMP-A6 review up.

 

[peng]

Yeah, lots of convenient rounding up and down

I would think so. Main problem with the E1DA is the DC that becomes an issue when assessing such low signals. I need to get the RME ADI 2/4 to do better measurements, but when choosing between getting a better analytical instrument or a 300B SET to play with for the same money, the toy is going to win!

Gene just said he was going to re-do his tests using more band limited than 192 kHz. I wouldn't want him to go to low so I suggested 96 kHz. If he left the dac filter at the default slow roll off (assumed only) then limiting to 96 kHz may make a little difference as it would pick up less harmonics in the super ultrasonic range.

 

[multisport4me]

Gene just said he was going to re-do his tests using more band limited than 192 kHz. I wouldn't want him to go to low so I suggested 96 kHz. If he left the dac filter at the default slow roll off (assumed only) then limiting to 96 kHz may make a little difference as it would pick up less harmonics in the super ultrasonic range.

Yea, I asked him if the DAC filter was on or off and he didn't reply. I'm curious to know. I didn't see him mention in his review...

Either way, I'm extremely pleased with my purchase. I feel its the best Marantz AVP in a very long time when the features and performance and price are all considered. When they add DLBC to this.....and maybe even ART...I think Storm had better be working on a cost-downed processor because this thing can give it a run for the money....3x less the amount of money.

 

[Newman]

It seems to me that while it is a legit concern about the need for high SINAD at very low output level, ......

People with that concern could well do to note that it's not distortion they are looking at, it's noise. That's why it increases by 6 dB per octave as the output level drops off. This means that the noise level itself, in millivolts, is constant, so if you can't hear any noise with the volume at 0 dB then you also won't hear any as the output level is reduced. The loudness of the noise doesn't change.

The message here is the same old message: don't screw up your gain structure. Your power amp's input sensitivity should be a good match to the AV10's output spec. Your speakers and power amps, in turn, should be matched so the amps run near their ideal performance envelope.

cheers

 

[peng]

Yea, I asked him if the DAC filter was on or off and he didn't reply. I'm curious to know. I didn't see him mention in his review...

Either way, I'm extremely pleased with my purchase. I feel its the best Marantz AVP in a very long time when the features and performance and price are all considered. When they add DLBC to this.....and maybe even ART...I think Storm had better be working on a cost-downed processor because this thing can give it a run for the money....3x less the amount of money.

You probably know by now that Gene finally managed to replicate Marantz's internal test results, i.e. 106 dB SINAD at 0 dBFS input, volume 82, at about 4 V balanced.

 

[multisport4me]

You probably know by now that Gene finally managed to replicate Marantz's internal test results, i.e. 106 dB SINAD at 0 dBFS input, volume 82, at about 4 V balanced.

No I did not. Thanks for letting me know.

 

[peng]

No I did not. Thanks for letting me know.

By the way, could you hear a difference between filter 1 and filter 2? If yes, please do a blind test to confirm. If not, I'd take your word for it.
If I had the AV10, I would probably use 1 for the Monday, Wednesday, Friday and 2 for the other days.

 

[multisport4me]

By the way, could you hear a difference between filter 1 and filter 2? If yes, please do a blind test to confirm. If not, I'd take your word for it.
If I had the AV10, I would probably use 1 for the Monday, Wednesday, Friday and 2 for the other days.

No, I didn't do a blind test. I have tried to compare but they are tough to tell apart. I perceive filter 2 has slightly tighter presentation but that could very well just be my biases as I never liked the idea of some guy in Japan telling me that his filter sounds better than what guys like Gene are finding on the bench. My ears tell me they aren't that different.

So I'll put it this way - I'm happy they offer a way to select the DAC filter and leave it set to the one I know measures better. The important thing is that it does not hurt the playback of music at all to my ears so I figure why not leave filter 2 on? If you like to know your favorite 24/96 track is playing and has 108dB SINAD and can still more than enjoy the track with no apparent consequences to the audibility or soundstage, then I'm guessing you'll use filter 2 as well, Peng.

 

[peng]

No, I didn't do a blind test. I have tried to compare but they are tough to tell apart. I perceive filter 2 has slightly tighter presentation but that could very well just be my biases as I never liked the idea of some guy in Japan telling me that his filter sounds better than what guys like Gene are finding on the bench. My ears tell me they aren't that different.

So I'll put it this way - I'm happy they offer a way to select the DAC filter and leave it set to the one I know measures better. The important thing is that it does not hurt the playback of music at all to my ears so I figure why not leave filter 2 on? If you like to know your favorite 24/96 track is playing and has 108dB SINAD and can still more than enjoy the track with no apparent consequences to the audibility or soundstage, then I'm guessing you'll use filter 2 as well, Peng.

I would probably use filter 2 for music and filter 1 for movies. Those who believe in Marantz sound master BS will likely do the opposite.

Here's Gene's updated SINAD vs pre out voltage graph:
@GXAlan may be happ(ier) to see >75 dB at below 0.05 V.

Marantz AV 10 15.4CH 8K AV Processor Bench Test Results

The Marantz AV 10 15.4CH 8K AV Processor produced excellent bench test results. This $7K AVP has bass management features no other competitor has at this price. We thoroughly test to show you how it works.

www.audioholics.com

Now we have to wait for @Matthew J Poes to published his tests on the Denon A1H.

 

[GXAlan]

I would probably use filter 2 for music and filter 1 for movies. Those who believe in Marantz sound master BS will likely do the opposite.

Here's Gene's updated SINAD vs pre out voltage graph:
@GXAlan may be happ(ier) to see >75 dB at below 0.05 V.

Marantz AV 10 15.4CH 8K AV Processor Bench Test Results

The Marantz AV 10 15.4CH 8K AV Processor produced excellent bench test results. This $7K AVP has bass management features no other competitor has at this price. We thoroughly test to show you how it works.

www.audioholics.com

Now we have to wait for @Matthew J Poes to published his tests on the Denon A1H.

Now we are talking! Reference class!