Big news coming from Sound United in 2023!

[GXAlan]

Your math is right to the first decimal place.

Obviously a "full curve" is better and I hope Amir will standardize on one that goes down to 100 mV, or better still, 50 mV, that's where my preamp would stay most of the time. I don't know if Amir's AP can measure accurate enough at such low input level.

Yeah, lots of convenient rounding up and down

I would think so. Main problem with the E1DA is the DC that becomes an issue when assessing such low signals. I need to get the RME ADI 2/4 to do better measurements, but when choosing between getting a better analytical instrument or a 300B SET to play with for the same money, the toy is going to win!

 

[peng]

Amir had the APx555 while Gene has the APx585 so the numbers aren’t comparable. That said, the lower voltage performance concerns me when wanting maximum SINAD at my typical listening levels.

What is the spl at your typical listening levels?
At 0.2 V, THD+N looks to be around -73 dB, if the curve maintains the degradation trend, even at well below 0.1 V SINAD will still be at around 70 dB, so distortions+N will be at or less than -70 dB, say at 0.05 V.

0.05 V, with amp gain = 26 dB, 8 ohms, Vout will be 1 V. Unless your speakers have really high sensitivity, 70 dB SINAD is not going to be an issue for you right?

 

[peng]

It seems to me that while it is a legit concern about the need for high SINAD at very low output level, it also seems often that people forgot to evaluate the individual case where lower SINAD may not be a practical issue if the spl (that corresponds to the output level) listen to may also be very low. As an extreme example, if I listen to spl of 60 dB average, 80 dB peak, then even 70 dB SINAD would put distortions in the -10 dB below the fundamental frequencies I listen to, without even considering the noise floor and masking effects.

 

[multisport4me]

This is like friggin' xmas. Amir posted the DMP-A6 review and Gene posted the AV10 review on the same day. Thanks to Amir for getting the DMP-A6 review up.

 

[peng]

Yeah, lots of convenient rounding up and down

I would think so. Main problem with the E1DA is the DC that becomes an issue when assessing such low signals. I need to get the RME ADI 2/4 to do better measurements, but when choosing between getting a better analytical instrument or a 300B SET to play with for the same money, the toy is going to win!

Gene just said he was going to re-do his tests using more band limited than 192 kHz. I wouldn't want him to go to low so I suggested 96 kHz. If he left the dac filter at the default slow roll off (assumed only) then limiting to 96 kHz may make a little difference as it would pick up less harmonics in the super ultrasonic range.

 

[multisport4me]

Gene just said he was going to re-do his tests using more band limited than 192 kHz. I wouldn't want him to go to low so I suggested 96 kHz. If he left the dac filter at the default slow roll off (assumed only) then limiting to 96 kHz may make a little difference as it would pick up less harmonics in the super ultrasonic range.

Yea, I asked him if the DAC filter was on or off and he didn't reply. I'm curious to know. I didn't see him mention in his review...

Either way, I'm extremely pleased with my purchase. I feel its the best Marantz AVP in a very long time when the features and performance and price are all considered. When they add DLBC to this.....and maybe even ART...I think Storm had better be working on a cost-downed processor because this thing can give it a run for the money....3x less the amount of money.

 

[Newman]

It seems to me that while it is a legit concern about the need for high SINAD at very low output level, ......

People with that concern could well do to note that it's not distortion they are looking at, it's noise. That's why it increases by 6 dB per octave as the output level drops off. This means that the noise level itself, in millivolts, is constant, so if you can't hear any noise with the volume at 0 dB then you also won't hear any as the output level is reduced. The loudness of the noise doesn't change.

The message here is the same old message: don't screw up your gain structure. Your power amp's input sensitivity should be a good match to the AV10's output spec. Your speakers and power amps, in turn, should be matched so the amps run near their ideal performance envelope.

cheers

 

[peng]

Yea, I asked him if the DAC filter was on or off and he didn't reply. I'm curious to know. I didn't see him mention in his review...

Either way, I'm extremely pleased with my purchase. I feel its the best Marantz AVP in a very long time when the features and performance and price are all considered. When they add DLBC to this.....and maybe even ART...I think Storm had better be working on a cost-downed processor because this thing can give it a run for the money....3x less the amount of money.

You probably know by now that Gene finally managed to replicate Marantz's internal test results, i.e. 106 dB SINAD at 0 dBFS input, volume 82, at about 4 V balanced.

 

[multisport4me]

You probably know by now that Gene finally managed to replicate Marantz's internal test results, i.e. 106 dB SINAD at 0 dBFS input, volume 82, at about 4 V balanced.

No I did not. Thanks for letting me know.

 

[peng]

No I did not. Thanks for letting me know.

By the way, could you hear a difference between filter 1 and filter 2? If yes, please do a blind test to confirm. If not, I'd take your word for it.
If I had the AV10, I would probably use 1 for the Monday, Wednesday, Friday and 2 for the other days.

 

[multisport4me]

By the way, could you hear a difference between filter 1 and filter 2? If yes, please do a blind test to confirm. If not, I'd take your word for it.
If I had the AV10, I would probably use 1 for the Monday, Wednesday, Friday and 2 for the other days.

No, I didn't do a blind test. I have tried to compare but they are tough to tell apart. I perceive filter 2 has slightly tighter presentation but that could very well just be my biases as I never liked the idea of some guy in Japan telling me that his filter sounds better than what guys like Gene are finding on the bench. My ears tell me they aren't that different.

So I'll put it this way - I'm happy they offer a way to select the DAC filter and leave it set to the one I know measures better. The important thing is that it does not hurt the playback of music at all to my ears so I figure why not leave filter 2 on? If you like to know your favorite 24/96 track is playing and has 108dB SINAD and can still more than enjoy the track with no apparent consequences to the audibility or soundstage, then I'm guessing you'll use filter 2 as well, Peng.

 

[peng]

No, I didn't do a blind test. I have tried to compare but they are tough to tell apart. I perceive filter 2 has slightly tighter presentation but that could very well just be my biases as I never liked the idea of some guy in Japan telling me that his filter sounds better than what guys like Gene are finding on the bench. My ears tell me they aren't that different.

So I'll put it this way - I'm happy they offer a way to select the DAC filter and leave it set to the one I know measures better. The important thing is that it does not hurt the playback of music at all to my ears so I figure why not leave filter 2 on? If you like to know your favorite 24/96 track is playing and has 108dB SINAD and can still more than enjoy the track with no apparent consequences to the audibility or soundstage, then I'm guessing you'll use filter 2 as well, Peng.

I would probably use filter 2 for music and filter 1 for movies. Those who believe in Marantz sound master BS will likely do the opposite.

Here's Gene's updated SINAD vs pre out voltage graph:
@GXAlan may be happ(ier) to see >75 dB at below 0.05 V.

Marantz AV 10 15.4CH 8K AV Processor Review!

The Marantz AV 10 15.4CH 8K AV Processor excelled in bench & listening tests. With unique bass management & room correction features, it's unmatched at its price. Long-term testing confirms its AV prowess.

www.audioholics.com

Now we have to wait for @Matthew J Poes to published his tests on the Denon A1H.

 

[GXAlan]

I would probably use filter 2 for music and filter 1 for movies. Those who believe in Marantz sound master BS will likely do the opposite.

Here's Gene's updated SINAD vs pre out voltage graph:
@GXAlan may be happ(ier) to see >75 dB at below 0.05 V.

Marantz AV 10 15.4CH 8K AV Processor Review!

The Marantz AV 10 15.4CH 8K AV Processor excelled in bench & listening tests. With unique bass management & room correction features, it's unmatched at its price. Long-term testing confirms its AV prowess.

www.audioholics.com

Now we have to wait for @Matthew J Poes to published his tests on the Denon A1H.

Now we are talking! Reference class!

 

[multisport4me]

I would probably use filter 2 for music and filter 1 for movies. Those who believe in Marantz sound master BS will likely do the opposite.

Here's Gene's updated SINAD vs pre out voltage graph:
@GXAlan may be happ(ier) to see >75 dB at below 0.05 V.

Marantz AV 10 15.4CH 8K AV Processor Review!

The Marantz AV 10 15.4CH 8K AV Processor excelled in bench & listening tests. With unique bass management & room correction features, it's unmatched at its price. Long-term testing confirms its AV prowess.

www.audioholics.com

Now we have to wait for @Matthew J Poes to published his tests on the Denon A1H.

Seems like a reasonable strategy. Albeit, if you can't hear the difference with music I seriously doubt you'll hear it with movies. Thus, I just leave mine on Filter 2. Plus, 80% of the usage of my system is for music - I don't watch tons of movies.

 

[peng]

Now we are talking! Reference class!

It can actually be competitive with desktop dacs now, and squeezed nicely in the yellow zone.

 

[peng]

Seems like a reasonable strategy. Albeit, if you can't hear the difference with music I seriously doubt you'll hear it with movies. Thus, I just leave mine on Filter 2. Plus, 80% of the usage of my system is for music - I don't watch tons of movies.

If you have golden ears, filter 1 will sound better with transients without ringing, warmer, smoother with more high freq roll off so it should be more suited for movie watching. Filter 2, being more accurate overall, it is the better choice for music. It is all academic, because I know I don't have golden ears.

 

[multisport4me]

If you have golden ears, filter 1 will sound better with transients without ringing, warmer, smoother with more high freq roll off so it should be more suited for movie watching. Filter 2, being more accurate overall, it is the better choice for music. It is all academic, because I know I don't have golden ears.

I'm too poor for golden - mine are silver at best - and I can't hear the difference for the most part. lol

 

[Newman]

I assume the comment was tongue-in-cheek, alluding to the fact that no-one has proven golden ears and, therefore, it’s all academic full stop.

 

[Mickey75]

I have a Pioneer SC-LX86 and I'm looking for a replacement supporting HDMI 2.1. I can't seem to find any Class D AVRs anymore and this thread is not very encouraging. Do you know of any candidates or is Class D dead in the 'mainstream'-market?

 

[Vacceo]

Primare and MacIntosh equip their AVR's with class D amps.