Big news coming from Sound United in 2023!

[sask15]

I know they are the same company and all but I was looking at the Crutchfield images of the 4800 vs Cinema 40 and they are pretty much identical(from the top view anyway). Backlit remote, different binding posts, blue vs green transformer trim ha ha, some tweaks to the sound and cosmetics but it’s pretty hard to justify the $1200 CDN price difference. I like the look of the Marantz but the 4800 seems like a bargain in comparison. Seems a little outrageous but I have seen posts that state in other countries they are priced quite similar. Getting hosed in Canada I guess.

 

[techsamurai]

I know they are the same company and all but I was looking at the Crutchfield images of the 4800 vs Cinema 40 and they are pretty much identical(from the top view anyway). Backlit remote, different binding posts, blue vs green transformer trim ha ha, some tweaks to the sound and cosmetics but it’s pretty hard to justify the $1200 CDN price difference. I like the look of the Marantz but the 4800 seems like a bargain in comparison. Seems a little outrageous but I have seen posts that state in other countries they are priced quite similar. Getting hosed in Canada I guess.

Great find.

Well, you can say the same about the Cinema 50 and 60 - they are 5016s and 6016s and those things were $900 and $1,500 not that long ago. So the hosing extends to the other models and the US. We also don't get the silver one cause why should we?

 

[sask15]

Yes the hosing is across the board as you say but identical chips, boards, everything. Just seems kind of crazy why they aren’t the same price within reason. Maybe the soundmaster spent less time perfectly “tuning” the Denon too who knows(extra labour costs to get the soundmaster in to listen to the Marantz. No, I have the 4800 but just thought I would point out the similarities between them.

 

[techsamurai]

Yes the hosing is across the board as you say but identical chips, boards, everything. Just seems kind of crazy why they aren’t the same price within reason.

I'm at a loss for words especially when the Denon 3800h costs $1,700 and has worse DACs than the 3700h which started at $1,000. I hope someone swoops in and they force Marantz and Denon to release x1 models next year lowering the price of all current models and then identical x2 models just offering deep discounts of 40% to compete.

 

[sask15]

I would say if they had to show the receipts there aren’t the price increases for the components to justify these prices.

 

[Chromatischism]

Some AVR's have (or at least they used to have!) graphics processing chips that would upscale and process the input.... they were intended to provide better output quality than was input. (thinking of my long gone Onkyo TX-SR876)

They can, but TVs do it better.

Even still, that would have no impact on video that does not need upscaling.

 

[techsamurai]

They can, but TVs do it better.

Even still, that would have no impact on video that does not need upscaling.

That might not be desirable. The blu-ray player applies its own processing, then your TV applies its own even if it's 4k. If it's a Sony, you definitely wouldn't want Marantz touching the picture before it does any processing.


Is it possible that the signal is simply kept clean in the AV10?

 

[Chromatischism]

That might not be desirable. The blu-ray player applies its own processing, then your TV applies its own. If it's a Sony, you definitely wouldn't want Marantz touching the picture before it does any processing.

Yeah. You can set your player to output unmodified video and let the TV handle it. AVR should just be "passthrough".

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

I know they are the same company and all but I was looking at the Crutchfield images of the 4800 vs Cinema 40 and they are pretty much identical(from the top view anyway). Backlit remote, different binding posts, blue vs green transformer trim ha ha, some tweaks to the sound and cosmetics but it’s pretty hard to justify the $1200 CDN price difference. I like the look of the Marantz but the 4800 seems like a bargain in comparison. Seems a little outrageous but I have seen posts that state in other countries they are priced quite similar. Getting hosed in Canada I guess.

When I was into Marantz from 13 years ago to about 4 years ago, my local dealer gave me 25% discount on all of their receivers. He wasn’t selling Denon interestingly though. So I assume Marantz has a higher markup for dealers.

 

[spaceboi]

Sound United (now) Masimo Consumer Training Videos for Denon and Marantz 2023 models are now on youtube.

some interesting results on offer.

DENON AVC-A1H

MARANTZ AV10/AMP10

 

[GXAlan]

The AV10 seems to be the processor to beat unless you need Trinnov.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

The AV10 seems to be the processor to beat unless you need Trinnov

Yea, wow.. Had no expectation that they’d improve their game by as much as they have. Not cheap at all, but great performance.

 

[dlaloum]

Onkyo have yet to release their RZ90 (Integra DRX R1.4).... which is expected to come out in both AVR and AVP versions.

Always good to have competition!

I look forward to seeing measurements of the AV10, AV1H, and RZ90.... although all of these will compete in a market segment with plenty of competitors.

The more interesting battle will I think be a notch down, in the sparse, high performance / value zone.... X4800/X6800/RZ70/LX805/Cinema40

 

[Sal1950]

The AV10 seems to be the processor to beat unless you need Trinnov.

I'll believe it when I see some independent measurements.

 

[Newman]

Wink noted.

 

[peng]

I'll believe it when I see some independent measurements.

You can see the measurements now!! Looks like it is the best $8,000 (with DLBC license factored in) preamp processor currently available, based on specs, measurements, and features.

Marantz AV 10 15.4CH AV Processor Bench Test Results!

It's not surprising that the Marantz AV 10 15.4CH 8K AV Processor produced excellent bench test results. This $7K processor has bass management features no other competitor has in this price class such as LFE Bass Routing and Bass Re-distribution. We thoroughly test these features to show you...

forums.audioholics.com

 

[GXAlan]

You can see the measurements now!! Looks like it is the best $8,000 (with DLBC license factored in) preamp processor currently available, based on specs, measurements, and features.

96 dB is pretty good, but it’s likely that Gene is hitting the limits of his APx585. These numbers are worse than what SU was showing.

Still, look at low power. At 500 mV, the AV10 is about 0.01%

Compare that to the good channels of the Yamaha A6A. At 0.5V, it is better than 0.01% with all Yamaha DSP on and 0.005% with DSP off which shows that the APx585 can get down to that level

If I do the math, 0.5V from preout means

14V with a 29 dB gain amplifier
9.6V wih a 25.7 dB HypeX amplifier

With a 4 ohm load, you are looking at almost 50 watts or 23W with the HypeX.

Since you should be doing 85 dB averages at reference level, it really shows you you are dealing with very low voltages most of time.

Granted, I just showed that 22 dB SINAD isn’t as bad as you think… but with home theater amplifiers, I would argue that you end up staying at much lower preamp voltages than you do with the scenario of a traditional DAC where 2V/4V makes a lot of sense as a number if you are using traditional amplifier gains.

In other words, I think the full curve is a lot more important for AVRs than they are for 2 ch.

@amirm, did I do the math right? Since 5W is the standard we use for AVRs, does it make sense to ALSO show a AV processor dashboard at 0.2V or so (which gets you to 4.5V with 26 or 29 db gain amp, rounded to a single digit).

I think this also shows the value of low gain amplifiers like the AHB2 which will really let you take full advantage of the sweet spot of your processor.

 

[DerRoland]

Gene praise the AV10 with "class leading measurements", but when I compare the sinad result at 2V (92db unbalanced) with amirs AVC-8500 review, the winner is still the AVC-8500 with 102dB sinad.

 

[GXAlan]

Gene praise the AV10 with "class leading measurements", but when I compare the sinad result at 2V (92db unbalanced) with amirs AVC-8500 review, the winner is still the AVC-8500 with 102dB sinad.

Amir had the APx555 while Gene has the APx585 so the numbers aren’t comparable. That said, the lower voltage performance concerns me when wanting maximum SINAD at my typical listening levels.

Sound United themselves claim 106 dB

 

[peng]

96 dB is pretty good, but it’s likely that Gene is hitting the limits of his APx585. These numbers are worse than what SU was showing.

Still, look at low power. At 500 mV, the AV10 is about 0.01%View attachment 281807
Compare that to the good channels of the Yamaha A6A. At 0.5V, it is better than 0.01% with all Yamaha DSP on and 0.005% with DSP off which shows that the APx585 can get down to that levelView attachment 281809

If I do the math, 0.5V from preout means

14V with a 29 dB gain amplifier
9.6V wih a 25.7 dB HypeX amplifier

With a 4 ohm load, you are looking at almost 50 watts or 23W with the HypeX.

Since you should be doing 85 dB averages at reference level, it really shows you you are dealing with very low voltages most of time.

Granted, I just showed that 22 dB SINAD isn’t as bad as you think… but with home theater amplifiers, I would argue that you end up staying at much lower preamp voltages than you do with the scenario of a traditional DAC where 2V/4V makes a lot of sense as a number if you are using traditional amplifier gains.

In other words, I think the full curve is a lot more important for AVRs than they are for 2 ch.

@amirm, did I do the math right? Since 5W is the standard we use for AVRs, does it make sense to ALSO show a AV processor dashboard at 0.2V or so (which gets you to 4.5V with 26 or 29 db gain amp, rounded to a single digit).

I think this also shows the value of low gain amplifiers like the AHB2 which will really let you take full advantage of the sweet spot of your processor.

Your math is right to the first decimal place.

Obviously a "full curve" is better and I hope Amir will standardize on one that goes down to 100 mV, or better still, 50 mV, that's where my preamp would stay most of the time. I don't know if Amir's AP can measure accurate enough at such low input level.