B&W vs Estelon vs Magico - Recent Demo

[MKR]

KEF Blade One Meta

PJ … have you lost your marbles? You didn’t recommend Genelec?!

 

[MarcT]

Cannot go wrong with KEF Blade’s or something like a Revel Salon2 which is “proven” with science. The Magico’s follow the same principles but have better enclosures and aesthetics, but there is a big step up in cost.

My bias has been to move toward active speakers, and I really like the “house sound” of Meyer Sound, which is industrial but solves the circle of confusion where the pros are mixing their content with those speakers.

Last, size matters. High frequency content is absorbed by the atmosphere at audible levels at maybe 12 ft or so. Something that measures high at 1m may not sound bright at 12-15 ft.

It’s also worth trying MBL and Magnepans. They are NOT consistent for everything, but they do offer “special effects” which people like.

I would also listen to the classic B&W Nautilus. Even though it is an outdated design, it is iconic like driving a Porsche 959.

The Yamaha NS5000 is also an option out of left field that is worth listening to before you make your final decision.

This is interesting. I sit around 11 feet from my Sonus Faber Lumina V tower speakers and I find that the high frequencies are just sort of "blah" and not very good. But if I move my head just two feet closer, the highs are much better. The problem is that, due to the family room layout, I can't move the sofa any closer and I can't really bring the speakers out any farther into the room. My high frequency hearing loss doesn't help, either. Perhaps the Lumina's are intended for a smaller listening space.

Perhaps, a speaker with a stronger tweeter balance might actually be better at this distance for me?

 

[Pearljam5000]

PJ … have you lost your marbles? You didn’t recommend Genelec?!

Lol
I'm afraid to do it
I'm already labeled as fanboy

 

[MKR]

Lol
I'm afraid to do it
I'm already labeled as fanboy

Nothing wrong with being a fanboy, especially such a well engineered speaker as the Genelecs, no one here can fault you for that. Now, if you were a fanboy of B&W, Wilson, etc, then I (we?) would definitely not be so tolerant

 

[MKR]

This is interesting. I sit around 11 feet from my Sonus Faber Lumina V tower speakers and I find that the high frequencies are just sort of "blah" and not very good. But if I move my head just two feet closer, the highs are much better. The problem is that, due to the family room layout, I can't move the sofa any closer and I can't really bring the speakers out any farther into the room. My high frequency hearing loss doesn't help, either. Perhaps the Lumina's are intended for a smaller listening space.

Perhaps, a speaker with a stronger tweeter balance might actually be better at this distance for me?

Not to derail too much here, but have you performed some measurements to see where the issue may be? That’s where I would start rather than guessing.

 

[Laserjock]

Or two blue Chimeneas and two Sonos 5 integrated into them.

I kid, I kid

Sounds like you’re on the right path to audio nirvana.

 

[Laserjock]

This is interesting. I sit around 11 feet from my Sonus Faber Lumina V tower speakers and I find that the high frequencies are just sort of "blah" and not very good. But if I move my head just two feet closer, the highs are much better. The problem is that, due to the family room layout, I can't move the sofa any closer and I can't really bring the speakers out any farther into the room. My high frequency hearing loss doesn't help, either. Perhaps the Lumina's are intended for a smaller listening space.

Perhaps, a speaker with a stronger tweeter balance might actually be better at this distance for me?

Maybe “tilting” them up or down?

 

[Digital_Thor]

Curious as to thoughts of others that own or have had the chance to demo the speakers in the title. I'm looking to upgrade speakers, and based ONLY on online research and my past experiences, I thought that I wanted to upgrade to the B&W 801's. I've had 3 different sets of B&W speakers over the years, and currently have both the original 703 series and some CM's in two different rooms. There were no dealers in my local area that kept 801 demo's in stock, so I found a dealer in Dallas that had some ready (and some McIntosh gear I'm also considering) in the store, and scheduled some time with them.

First up was the B&W 801 D4's,....and I thought they sounded fantastic. Same sound I'm used to but bigger in every way. I liked them and was probably just about ready to pull the trigger. The shop then suggested that I also audition the Estelon XB's. I had been considering the 801 Signature version (blue color increased the WAF) and since the price of those were close to the Estelon XB's, he said I should hear those also.

WOW. There really was no comparison. I know sound is subjective, but for me, in that room, with that gear,....it wasn't even close. The Estelon's had some voodoo that just worked for me. They then asked me if I wanted to hear something from Magico that was similarly priced, and swapped speakers for the Magico S3. Again....WOW! The B&W sound that I have lived with and loved for 20+ years....just was not even in the same ball park as the Estelon and Magico speakers.

The shop guy could tell I was in love and asked if I wanted to demo the next step up, the Estelon X Diamond. These were much more expensive speakers, but the bass extension difference was clearly better and they sounded amazing.

I'm looking for a sanity check or some advice here. Before I throw down big $'s on a speaker upgrade, has anyone else demo'd these with the same gear in the same room? Different conclusion? I'm also interested in other directions to look at both price levels here (~ $50k and ~ $90k). Sure loved what I heard, but should probably seek out listening to some other options to make sure there is no buyer's remorse. Let me hear your thoughts on these speakers....or others that should be considered in both of these price ranges.

Thanks in advance!

I have listened to a lot of B&W gear, same story every time - big dip in the upper midrange/lower tweeter - never an honest presentation with those speakers - no matter the price.
Magico are way better - but still super expensive for what you get.
MCintosh - I see no reason to buy it, since there are tons of amplifiers for much less, that will play both the same or better - tried it so many times.

Definitely try something like KEF Blade/reference, D&D 8C, Kii 3 and Revel. They are just way better build and will satisfy you for longer - since there is less BS.

I've listened to many very expensive amplifiers, and in the end, it is the raw power and good engineering that wins in the long run - not flashy meters and bulky/heavy designs.

One of my friends have the Magico Q7 and some hefty Dan D'agostino mono blocks.... still not great until we added subs and DSP. The room dominates, and even though some speakers are less influenced by the room reflections - then at bass frequencies... the room dominates ultimately - every time.

Please consider something like the Minidsp Flex + some NCcore power amp variant + two subwoofers if possible - maybe even the Dirac option. This should beat all those fancy ultra high-end brands - simply because you can now get control of that bass, and actually hear the quality of the midrange/tweeter or Coax - without the heavy masking from the bass.

With the Dutch and Dutch you even have both pre-amp, subwoofers and room-correction built-in. No need for extra gear - high WAF.... if she likes the look of it of-course

But I'm just winging it here. I have no idea what your true budget is, what gear you already have and if you have any special demands for the system....special input, loudness, color... something something.

 

[GXAlan]

This is interesting. I sit around 11 feet from my Sonus Faber Lumina V tower speakers and I find that the high frequencies are just sort of "blah" and not very good. But if I move my head just two feet closer, the highs are much better. The problem is that, due to the family room layout, I can't move the sofa any closer and I can't really bring the speakers out any farther into the room. My high frequency hearing loss doesn't help, either. Perhaps the Lumina's are intended for a smaller listening space.

Perhaps, a speaker with a stronger tweeter balance might actually be better at this distance for me?

The “right” answer is just to use EQ or tilt of some sort. There is a lot of “risk” with correcting above the transition frequency but I suspect that some fans of full range EQ are listening far away and may be correcting this absorption. The results are both subtle and fully meet the threshold of audibility…

That’s especially true if you “like” the sound just a few feet closer…

Playing with toe in and toe out and trying to get the tweeter as on-axis to your ear as possible may help.

McIntosh - I see no reason to buy it, since there are tons of amplifiers for much less, that will play both the same or better - tried it so many times.

+0.5

I am a big McIntosh fan, but have also owned the HypeX based Marantz PM-10 and MiniDSP/ICE power stuff, and currently just use whatever class D implementation that is in my Meyer Sounds.

I agree with there being little sound difference between a McIntosh HypeX product and a McIntosh Class AB setup and a Buckeye Amp. What you do get from McIntosh is reliability, good heat capacity, etc.

 

[Shiva]

I say, since you heard and loved the Estelon's, get them....

 

[quattro98]

I won't go back to B&W, Focal or KEF.

I’m biased, but I wouldn’t judge all three of these as a group. I think KEF is designed and engineered to objective design criteria consistent with the information we have on what makes a good speaker. The coaxial midrange/tweeter adds to the speaker with even horizontal and vertical dispersion.

My short list of preferred speakers includes KEF, Genelec, Neumann, Dutch and Dutch, Kii, and Sigberg. For passive speakers, I like KEF, but I’d be perfectly happy with Revel, Perlisten, or Magico as well. There are design differences, but all of them are objectively excellent from the information we have. Magico doesn’t seem to provide as much information on their website about performance and is anchored in the traditional audiophile/high-end space in multiple ways.

 

[Timcognito]

FYI

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - Loudspeakers

www.soundstagenetwork.com

 

[quattro98]

In speakers, two things I'm looking forward to seeing are the development of the Purifi products and an updated Neumann KH 310A. We mostly have what we need at home, but there is one space that could use speakers, but it will probably be limited to custom install.

 

[cpachris]

I appreciate all the responses. Considered, researched and weighed.

Happy to report that my original "upgrade" to the living room home theater system...has morphed into a full-on 2-channel implementation of a listening room in what was my upstairs guitar room. I WILL be heading to Dallas again this weekend for the Southwest AudioFest. So much of what I'm considering is there...and I hope to see/touch/smell/hear/taste all of it.

New room is 16' x 19' and I will be allowed complete control of speaker placement and room treatments. While I would consider my wife extremely accommodating and forgiving, I never could have gotten away with huge bass traps or speakers not right up against the wall in our living room. So this is a good thing. I'm super excited about building this. Will update this thread with listening experience from Southwest AudioFest this weekend.

 

[MarcT]

I appreciate all the responses. Considered, researched and weighed.

Happy to report that my original "upgrade" to the living room home theater system...has morphed into a full-on 2-channel implementation of a listening room in what was my upstairs guitar room. I WILL be heading to Dallas again this weekend for the Southwest AudioFest. So much of what I'm considering is there...and I hope to see/touch/smell/hear/taste all of it.

New room is 16' x 19' and I will be allowed complete control of speaker placement and room treatments. While I would consider my wife extremely accommodating and forgiving, I never could have gotten away with huge bass traps or speakers not right up against the wall in our living room. So this is a good thing. I'm super excited about building this. Will update this thread with listening experience from Southwest AudioFest this weekend.

I'm leaving for the show in a few minutes and also looking forward to some audio eye candy.

BTW, I started a thread in the Audio Shows forum for the SW AudioFest, in case you might want to post anything there. There hasn't been any reply, so I'm assuming that very few ASR guys live around here. I'm going to try to post some pics.

Southwest Audio Fest announced -- Dallas, TX -- March 15-17, 2024--Exhibitor list now up

The SW Audio Fest will be held at the Hilton Anatole Hotel in Dallas. I'm quite interested, as I live only a couple hours from Dallas and have relatives there. As of yet, I do not see a list of exhibitors. The show is being put on by the men behind Capital Audiofest and Pacific Audio Fest. I...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[creditingkarma]

Curious as to thoughts of others that own or have had the chance to demo the speakers in the title. I'm looking to upgrade speakers, and based ONLY on online research and my past experiences, I thought that I wanted to upgrade to the B&W 801's. I've had 3 different sets of B&W speakers over the years, and currently have both the original 703 series and some CM's in two different rooms. There were no dealers in my local area that kept 801 demo's in stock, so I found a dealer in Dallas that had some ready (and some McIntosh gear I'm also considering) in the store, and scheduled some time with them.

First up was the B&W 801 D4's,....and I thought they sounded fantastic. Same sound I'm used to but bigger in every way. I liked them and was probably just about ready to pull the trigger. The shop then suggested that I also audition the Estelon XB's. I had been considering the 801 Signature version (blue color increased the WAF) and since the price of those were close to the Estelon XB's, he said I should hear those also.

WOW. There really was no comparison. I know sound is subjective, but for me, in that room, with that gear,....it wasn't even close. The Estelon's had some voodoo that just worked for me. They then asked me if I wanted to hear something from Magico that was similarly priced, and swapped speakers for the Magico S3. Again....WOW! The B&W sound that I have lived with and loved for 20+ years....just was not even in the same ball park as the Estelon and Magico speakers.

The shop guy could tell I was in love and asked if I wanted to demo the next step up, the Estelon X Diamond. These were much more expensive speakers, but the bass extension difference was clearly better and they sounded amazing.

I'm looking for a sanity check or some advice here. Before I throw down big $'s on a speaker upgrade, has anyone else demo'd these with the same gear in the same room? Different conclusion? I'm also interested in other directions to look at both price levels here (~ $50k and ~ $90k). Sure loved what I heard, but should probably seek out listening to some other options to make sure there is no buyer's remorse. Let me hear your thoughts on these speakers....or others that should be considered in both of these price ranges.

Thanks in advance!

I am in a similar position. I was actually thinking of down sizing due to a change in employment. I currently own a pair of Xb diamond mkII with an MSB premier and s202. I had a pair of B&W 805d4 in my room to audition. There was obviously no comparison to the Estelon. I also owned a pair or Rockport Atria II and Cygnus (the later had an issue with it). The only Estelon are a much more detailed presentation than the Rockports. They are closer to my old Magico S1mkII.

What is the price point that you are looking at. A dealer near me has a pair of X Diamond mkII that is pre owned the client just upgraded to a pair of Forza. I think he is askin $67k for the X Diamond but probably some room to work the price down.

I agree though Estelon make incredible speakers.

 

[fredoamigo]

AudiogoNscience rewiew

 

[Sokel]

You might check into Rockport Technologies speakers. The Avior II is in that price range. There is a dealer in OKC.

Also, consider attending the inaugural Southwest Audio Fest in Dallas next weekend, where there will be all kinds of top speaker options being demonstrated. It's at the Anatole Hotel.

Attend | SouthWestAudioFest

Information on what attendees of the SouthWest Audio Fest can expect including show dates & times, accommodation info, and events taking place at the show.

www.southwestaudiofest.com

I double-triple that.
Can't go wrong with Rockports

 

[Blockader]

Curious as to thoughts of others that own or have had the chance to demo the speakers in the title. I'm looking to upgrade speakers, and based ONLY on online research and my past experiences, I thought that I wanted to upgrade to the B&W 801's. I've had 3 different sets of B&W speakers over the years, and currently have both the original 703 series and some CM's in two different rooms. There were no dealers in my local area that kept 801 demo's in stock, so I found a dealer in Dallas that had some ready (and some McIntosh gear I'm also considering) in the store, and scheduled some time with them.

First up was the B&W 801 D4's,....and I thought they sounded fantastic. Same sound I'm used to but bigger in every way. I liked them and was probably just about ready to pull the trigger. The shop then suggested that I also audition the Estelon XB's. I had been considering the 801 Signature version (blue color increased the WAF) and since the price of those were close to the Estelon XB's, he said I should hear those also.

WOW. There really was no comparison. I know sound is subjective, but for me, in that room, with that gear,....it wasn't even close. The Estelon's had some voodoo that just worked for me. They then asked me if I wanted to hear something from Magico that was similarly priced, and swapped speakers for the Magico S3. Again....WOW! The B&W sound that I have lived with and loved for 20+ years....just was not even in the same ball park as the Estelon and Magico speakers.

The shop guy could tell I was in love and asked if I wanted to demo the next step up, the Estelon X Diamond. These were much more expensive speakers, but the bass extension difference was clearly better and they sounded amazing.

I'm looking for a sanity check or some advice here. Before I throw down big $'s on a speaker upgrade, has anyone else demo'd these with the same gear in the same room? Different conclusion? I'm also interested in other directions to look at both price levels here (~ $50k and ~ $90k). Sure loved what I heard, but should probably seek out listening to some other options to make sure there is no buyer's remorse. Let me hear your thoughts on these speakers....or others that should be considered in both of these price ranges.

Thanks in advance!

Check Cabasse La Sphere

Vivid Audio Giya too.

As Sigberg Audio previously advised, make sure the volume from the speakers are matched for each demonstration. There's a possibility that dealers may play more expensive speakers at a higher volume to motivate you into spending more. To counter this, I recommend purchasing a reasonably good SPL (sound level) meter to measure the speakers sound levels in the dealer's room accurately. Without such a tool, you may be susceptible to the dealers manipulative tactics.

There's something as important as speakers if not more: Your room. Make sure you have money left to buy large diffusors. No speaker can sound good without room treatment. At least the room must be heavily furnitured to reduce the reverberation times. Imaging, soundstage performance of speakers is mostly related to how well early reflections are controlled in a room. And some speakers can *synergize* with certain type of rooms better.

 

[Sokel]

Check Cabasse La Sphere

Vivid Audio Giya too.

As Sigberg Audio previously advised, make sure the volume from the speakers are matched for each demonstration. There's a possibility that dealers may play more expensive speakers at a higher volume to motivate you into spending more. To counter this, I recommend purchasing a reasonably good SPL (sound level) meter to measure the speakers sound levels in the dealer's room accurately. Without such a tool, you may be susceptible to the dealers manipulative tactics.

I totally agree on that and add that the level should be at the point where the (possible) higher dynamic range playing ability of more expensive speakers will not take over too soon as it is a big differentiator.
So,75db (A) average,or so will be a good start.
If however the DR is of your priorities pushing them higher is not the worst idea.